9 ms·

> OTOH the Model S is the most well manufactured anything I've ever sat in. Have tried out a full-option Audi A8 or an S-Class or 7 series? During my time in t

by bflesch 11y ago

> OTOH the Model S is the most well manufactured anything I've ever sat in. Have tried out a full-option Audi A8 or an S-Class or 7 series? During my time in the US I was shocked by the bad interior quality of GM. Apart from the actual software running on the cars, I think German manufacturers still have very high quality interior in their flagship models. RE: Software: Current Audis take ~15 secs to boot up the navigation, and during that period you cannot input anything / the screen just hangs.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
daveguy 11y ago
Re: software... So the first time you get in it the A8 has a zero to 60 of 20.4 seconds? That sounds about right. I drove an A4 for a while and the gas response was absolutely terrible. You had to press it gently if you wanted it to respond immediately. If you gunned it or even just pressed a little quick to get across oncoming lanes -- expect about a half second delay. One of the worst cars I have driven. Taking it to the dealer the response was -- "that's normal". My boring ass accord responds to the gas pedal better than the A4. Maybe their higher end cars are better, but I wouldn't get another audi.
- kbenson 11y ago
  My mother has a Mercedes with the same response. I assumed it was a luxury car and/or Mercedes large engine thing. Whenever I drive it I end up jerking forward trying to manually compensate. I imagine if I just accepted it everything would be much smoother .
  - arprocter 11y ago
    I'm not sure if it's related, but IIRC there was a lot of complaining when BMW first introduced drive-by-wire throttles (E46 3 series)
  - kerryfalk 11y ago
    Guesses as I don't know which specific models you're referring to: The parent's lack of throttle response is most likely due to turbo lag. Modern cars are getting better with variable vein turbos. If your Mom's Mercedes suffers from poor throttle response I'd guess it's because she purchased one with a small engine relative to the size of the vehicle. A C230, for example, isn't the sportiest of cars. A C63, however, does not suffer from poor throttle response.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      No, it's a CLK430 convertible from ~2003. It's got plenty of power, it just feels like it purposefully retards the throttle when starting from stop for a short while to keep it from jerking off the line. In my trying to compensate for that, I give it more throttle, which seems to trigger it to stop the retarding action, and the it accelerates faster than expected. It feels like if I just let it do its thing it would be fine, but it feels slow to me when starting, which causes the whole problem. This isn't a developed problem, it was like this from the beginning, so I assume it's on purpose.
      - kerryfalk 11y ago
        The CLK430 has a 275 HP V8 and the car weighs nearly 4,000lbs. That's not a lot of power for a vehicle of that size and non-AMG models aren't geared for acceleration. The surge you experience is probably the transmission down-shifting. On typical city driving the Mercedes transmissions seem to select gears 2 higher than what would be optimal for acceleration. In the AMG models they don't even use 1st gear unless the transmission is in Sport mode. Glib solution: Buy an AMG and smile when you put your right foot down, but cry when you go to the bank...
        kbenson 11y ago
        > The CLK430 has a 275 HP V8 and the car weighs nearly 4,000lbs. That's not a lot of power for a vehicle of that size and non-AMG models aren't geared for acceleration. I alternate driving a Honda Odyssey and a recent base level Hyundai Elantra as a commuter every day. I'll tell you flat out this is not a problem with too little horsepower or torque. I've also recently driven one of the AMG Mercedes variants for a few days, and seemed to notice the same issue in that vehicle, but much less pronounced. > The surge you experience is probably the transmission down-shifting. What I'm experiencing seems to be slightly different than what the original commentor started out with. I'm referring to starting moving forward from stop, such as a stoplight. > Glib solution: Buy an AMG and smile when you put your right foot down, but cry when you go to the bank... Naw, I still have my 240z sitting out back. It was fairly tricked out prior to it becoming basically useless most the time when I had multiple children. I get most of my jonesing for fast cars satisfied by the fantasy that I'll one day fix it up again. I think it was way more fun to drive than most the modern fast cars, because it's not so much about how fast you go, but how fast if feels like you are going. Driving a small early 70's sports car serves that up pretty well even without actually going all that fast. :)
- tomp 11y ago
  Which cars don't have a delay? If you have a gas (i.e. relatively low torque) car with automatic transmission, it needs to shift in a lower gear if you want to accelerate rapidly, so that's where the delay comes from.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    GP was probably referring to turbo lag. I love my 2014 Mazda 3's Sport Mode. When I hit that button, the engine goes from being more than adequate to chomping at the bit. It just flies. Love that thing. Paddle shifters so I can downshift without even moving my hands. Test drive one someday, Mazda isn't kidding around with the "zoom zoom".
  - LoSboccacc 11y ago
    As a six pot aspirated driver, screw turbos, automatic gearbox and mileage. I'd either drive this car till it dies or until a volta makes landfall in my country at a reasonable markup.
- MagnumOpus 11y ago
  Let me guess, your boring ass-accord does not have a turbocharger and the A4 did? Turbo lag is hard to avoid if you want the good power/weight of the turbocharged engine.
  - kalms 11y ago
    I mean, if anything the speeder on my 2016 VW Touran 150hp 1.4 TSI is too responsive. That's probably more of an issue with DSG7. (It has a compressor afaik)
  - daveguy 11y ago
    Yup. It was a turbo. I thought that turbo issues had been resolved in the early 2000s with proper transmission tuning and turbo-on. Apparently audi did a piss poor job of it until the the last 2-3 years (according to other posters). I'll take a few less horsepower with better responsiveness any day. I'm not trying to beat anyone in a 1/4 mile -- i'd much rather the car be enjoyable and responsive. Half a second can easily mean the difference between getting out of the way of someone coming up on you not paying attention and getting rear ended. Hopefully they got their shit together. TL;DR: .,-' is better than ___/
    - encoderer 11y ago
      A turbo is a better driving experience on the highway. So, it's really just about buying the right car for your driving tastes. There is no way to "solve" turbo lag. The compressor needs torque before it can produce boost. At the high end you can do a twin turbo. Not in an a4. And you could say something similar about having necessary power on the highway to avoid a collision. Tldr: It's all subjective.
      - kerryfalk 11y ago
        A turbo is a better driving experience on the highway. How so? I would perceive no difference between a turbo'd engine and a Naturally Aspirated one while driving on the highway at a constant speed. Engine responsiveness as per the parent poster would be the same within the city vs. on the highway. There is no way to "solve" turbo lag. I'd suggest researching variable vein turbos. BMW has done it very successfully in their e92 335s. Even resulting in a flat torque curve at very low RPM. It's impressive engineering.
- bflesch 11y ago
  That's an interesting observation. Obviously it doesn't take 20 sec for an A8, but you really need to pay a lot of money for it to have a reasonable acceleration of ~5 sec. And I think this is the most striking thing about Tesla's cars, because right now, every potential Audi buyer knows that every single Tesla car will beat the 5 seconds 0 to 60 you bought with a lot of money (speaking of mainstream models).
  - Shengbo 11y ago
    I believe what he meant is that it takes 15(to launch the software) + 5.4(0-60) = 20.4 seconds to get from getting into the car to 60 mph.
    - daveguy 11y ago
      That is what I meant. And if we count turbo lag it's zero to 1 mph in 15.5 seconds, unless you're on a hill. :) I would like to drive a tesla. That low end immediate torque is probably a lot of fun.
      - varjag 11y ago
        You don't need a Tesla, it's the same even on the low end EVs (and probably many of hybrids). Not having a wax pedal feels amazing.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
hangonhn 11y ago
Wow, OK, good to know I'm not the only one who feels this way about German cars. I don't understand why they're so bad at software. My BMW takes that long to boot up the nav too! One of my biggest reasons to get a Tesla 3 is that they seem to be much better at software and seems to understand general computing and the flexibility that comes with it.
- woah 11y ago
  I don't know anything about software engineering in Germany or at BMW, but knowing German culture, I imagine it is due to some combination of waterfall processes, top down management, fixed specifications, and every engineer being required to have a master's or phd.
- rconti 11y ago
  I know some BMWs have Navigation systems that begin to boot as soon as you unlock the car. It's a clever solution -- although my dad ran into battery discharge issues because of it; if you don't drive much (retired) so the car sits a lot, and then all of your trips are short trips... sooner or later you might kill the battery.
  - yason 11y ago
    Where might you need navigation on short trips? I assume you can just turn the navigation off in a BMW so that it doesn't prevent using the rest of the functionality.
    - rconti 11y ago
      Well, it boots (and runs) in the background. I don't think any modern nav system can be truly switched off, even if the display to the radio/nav/etc system is switched off. Again, because of boot times, it makes sense to have it begin booting as soon as the car is unlocked, and to run in the background the entire time the car is running.
- gumby 11y ago
  I can tell you the reason at Daimler (Mercedes -- did some work with them in Sindelfingen): They care about the car and the driving experience (sound and reliability of the motor, doors etc). The radio and such? Not mission critical, so they just write a spec and outsource it. You don't get any advancement for worrying about those things. I've owned a bunch of mercedeses over the year and they've generally been pretty good, though expensive to fix when something does go wrong. My mini, by contrast, has a "sport" button. The documentation says "makes the car more sporty". The current "S" models have a turbocharger not a supercharger. 40% of the manual is on the entertainment system. I think these are all great. (Of course at the end of the day that mini is a BMW so has all the fit and finish problems I experienced with BMWs before I gave up on them. Fun to drive but never again!)
beachstartup 11y ago
high end german cars (like the really high end stuff, the AMGs, Ms, RSs, turbo S's of the world) are all nicer than model S's. tesla just attracts the attention of non-car people who don't have much experience with six figure cars.
- varjag 11y ago
  could it be because it's a 5 figure car
  - rubbingalcohol 11y ago
    most of the 6 figure cars people are talking about in this thread are 5 figure cars before you spec them out, just like the model S.
    - varjag 11y ago
      AMG (base price of 130,000 USD) and S are not in the same price league, no matter how much you trick the latter out. Sure, extra 40-50k usd can buy you nice leather trim..
      - kerryfalk 11y ago
        C Class AMGs start around $80k.
      - beachstartup 11y ago
        AMG makes a lot of models with a lot of prices. they're all pretty much nicer than the tesla S.
- exclusiv 11y ago
  It you are right - that Telsa buyers buy their near 100k cars without knowing about OR looking at the competition - then you might as well be long on them since their sales & marketing is way more efficient. Your dig is actually a win for Tesla and a bad sign for the ones you mentioned. I'm not challenging that, in general, Tesla attracts "non-car people" but the suggestion that people that buy AMGs, RSs and 911s are "car people" is nonsense. I'll give you M though. Regardless of who buys what, because who cares.. let's compare the acceleration performance of a few (0-60 and 1/4 mi): Tesla Model S P90D - 2.8s / 10.9s Audi RS - 3.3s / 11.5s 2016 Mercedes AMG GT S - 3.1 / 11.2 2017 Porsche 911 Turbo S - 2.8 / 11.1 These cars aren't even in the same retail category and Tesla is outperforming those that cost a lot more. Very few 4-door cars offer what the Tesla Model S offers. It's a new brand and seen as anti-establishment, there's not many of them yet, they sell direct and they seem to communicate very well with their customers. Their software and in-car technology is great. People are reacting to many things that Tesla is doing right. It will be interesting to see how they do as they move downward. It hasn't seemed to hurt Mercedes.
Cthulhu_ 11y ago
I haven't actually used a Tesla, but based on just screenshots... they really need a designer for their software. I mean, it had gradients. That's why I'm kinda hoping Apple ups their game and makes car navigation work. No reason why they couldn't use smartphone hardware and just keep it in low power standby.
- FullyFunctional 11y ago
  Well, I have two (2012 & 2014) and let me tell you: the UI is great; all important touch screen buttons are near one edge of the frame, allowing blind muscle memory to actually work. I really don't care one iota what the color or gradient is. I also have many iDevices and frankly the Tesla UI wouldn't be improved by iOS/CarPlay-style UI.
  - bflesch 11y ago
    The great thing about teslas is that they can instantly roll out features like user themes or "flat design". Every time my Audi is at the garage they take ~15 minutes and a special-purpose Laptop to update some arcane piece of software in the car (fixing bugs). It's such a huge shift in mindset and operations for the incumbents they won't be able to make it. Recent models still come with a sim car slot so you can get real-time updates on the map.
    - vvanders 11y ago
      There was some stuff floating around a while back saying that the repair & software update agreement that some mfgrs have would contractually prevent them from even being able to do OTAs. I've been saying a while Tesla's competitive advantage isn't batteries or electric motors(these are pretty well understood) but in software. They can aggregate statistics across 100k+ cars and determine how people really use cars as opposed to guesses or surveys which are not nearly as accurate. Combine that with monthly/bi-monthly OTAs and you've got a good chance for disruption.
gthtjtkt 11y ago
> Apart from the actual software running on the cars, I think German manufacturers still have very high quality interior in their flagship models. Motor Trend's Chevy Camaro SS vs. BMW M4 review is pretty telling. They rated the $46,000 Camaro better than the $81,000 M4 in almost every category, including interior features. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I
- shinglesbell 11y ago
  Motor trend??
- bflesch 11y ago
  80k for M4 is also totally overblown. The 4 series is very recent - I've actually never seen one in Germany up until now.
  - gthtjtkt 11y ago
    > 80k for M4 is also totally overblown Really? Even though it was still missing features that a Chevrolet had? Like satellite radio, a heated steering wheel, and ventilated seats? You can easily get an M4 up to $90k ($100k+ if you make it a convertible).
    - bflesch 11y ago
      I actually meant that I think with 80k BMW is overcharging for the M4 by a huge margin. As you said, you can get the same or even more for way less money spent :)
      - kerryfalk 11y ago
        ? The M4 is basically an M3 - they've been around that price range for quite a while. What else can you obtain with similar performance numbers and fit and finish for "way less money spent"?
ryanmarsh 11y ago
LOL, the software on the 2016 Cadillacs, absolutely shameful. I'd be so embarrassed if I worked on that team. Apple Car Play is the only good thing about the software in those cars.
mikepalmer 11y ago
Re Tesla versus BMW and Mercedes: It's true the interior of the Tesla is spare, but you could also call it clean. The Mercedes S550 has higher quality materials, but the interior is pretty busy/glitzy I think. BMW is also quite high quality materials, and cleaner design than the Mercedes. Tesla materials are not as nice, I have to say. However: 1. Both the BMW and Mercedes infotainment systems are _profoundly_ clunky compared to the Tesla. Tesla is far, far ahead - not only with the 17" screen, but also UI. Cannot overemphasize this. The Tesla is a pleasure to use & they are clearly working to minimize # of clicks to get a task done - when will BMW get a clue about this?? 2. When you press the pedal, the Model S accelerates _right now_. It is like piloting a UFO: car was there; now car is here. This makes the driving experience totally different in traffic. You see an opening in traffic, and pow, you can take it. It's frustrating to drive a gas car after getting used to this. Likewise handling is excellent - the weight of the battery placed so low in the car makes it stick to the road like a go cart. I used to have a BMW M3... so much noise and fuss to accelerate! In the Tesla, it's silent, you just pull away from people effortlessly. I think Tesla is actually under-marketing the driveability. It is not even the 0-60 time that matters: it's the very low latency.

by bflesch 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

daveguy 11y ago

Re: software... So the first time you get in it the A8 has a zero to 60 of 20.4 seconds? That sounds about right. I drove an A4 for a while and the gas response was absolutely terrible. You had to press it gently if you wanted it to respond immediately. If you gunned it or even just pressed a little quick to get across oncoming lanes -- expect about a half second delay. One of the worst cars I have driven. Taking it to the dealer the response was -- "that's normal". My boring ass accord responds to the gas pedal better than the A4. Maybe their higher end cars are better, but I wouldn't get another audi.

kbenson 11y ago
My mother has a Mercedes with the same response. I assumed it was a luxury car and/or Mercedes large engine thing. Whenever I drive it I end up jerking forward trying to manually compensate. I imagine if I just accepted it everything would be much smoother .
- arprocter 11y ago
  I'm not sure if it's related, but IIRC there was a lot of complaining when BMW first introduced drive-by-wire throttles (E46 3 series)
- kerryfalk 11y ago
  Guesses as I don't know which specific models you're referring to: The parent's lack of throttle response is most likely due to turbo lag. Modern cars are getting better with variable vein turbos. If your Mom's Mercedes suffers from poor throttle response I'd guess it's because she purchased one with a small engine relative to the size of the vehicle. A C230, for example, isn't the sportiest of cars. A C63, however, does not suffer from poor throttle response.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    No, it's a CLK430 convertible from ~2003. It's got plenty of power, it just feels like it purposefully retards the throttle when starting from stop for a short while to keep it from jerking off the line. In my trying to compensate for that, I give it more throttle, which seems to trigger it to stop the retarding action, and the it accelerates faster than expected. It feels like if I just let it do its thing it would be fine, but it feels slow to me when starting, which causes the whole problem. This isn't a developed problem, it was like this from the beginning, so I assume it's on purpose.
    - kerryfalk 11y ago
      The CLK430 has a 275 HP V8 and the car weighs nearly 4,000lbs. That's not a lot of power for a vehicle of that size and non-AMG models aren't geared for acceleration. The surge you experience is probably the transmission down-shifting. On typical city driving the Mercedes transmissions seem to select gears 2 higher than what would be optimal for acceleration. In the AMG models they don't even use 1st gear unless the transmission is in Sport mode. Glib solution: Buy an AMG and smile when you put your right foot down, but cry when you go to the bank...
      - kbenson 11y ago
        > The CLK430 has a 275 HP V8 and the car weighs nearly 4,000lbs. That's not a lot of power for a vehicle of that size and non-AMG models aren't geared for acceleration. I alternate driving a Honda Odyssey and a recent base level Hyundai Elantra as a commuter every day. I'll tell you flat out this is not a problem with too little horsepower or torque. I've also recently driven one of the AMG Mercedes variants for a few days, and seemed to notice the same issue in that vehicle, but much less pronounced. > The surge you experience is probably the transmission down-shifting. What I'm experiencing seems to be slightly different than what the original commentor started out with. I'm referring to starting moving forward from stop, such as a stoplight. > Glib solution: Buy an AMG and smile when you put your right foot down, but cry when you go to the bank... Naw, I still have my 240z sitting out back. It was fairly tricked out prior to it becoming basically useless most the time when I had multiple children. I get most of my jonesing for fast cars satisfied by the fantasy that I'll one day fix it up again. I think it was way more fun to drive than most the modern fast cars, because it's not so much about how fast you go, but how fast if feels like you are going. Driving a small early 70's sports car serves that up pretty well even without actually going all that fast. :)
tomp 11y ago
Which cars don't have a delay? If you have a gas (i.e. relatively low torque) car with automatic transmission, it needs to shift in a lower gear if you want to accelerate rapidly, so that's where the delay comes from.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  GP was probably referring to turbo lag. I love my 2014 Mazda 3's Sport Mode. When I hit that button, the engine goes from being more than adequate to chomping at the bit. It just flies. Love that thing. Paddle shifters so I can downshift without even moving my hands. Test drive one someday, Mazda isn't kidding around with the "zoom zoom".
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  As a six pot aspirated driver, screw turbos, automatic gearbox and mileage. I'd either drive this car till it dies or until a volta makes landfall in my country at a reasonable markup.
MagnumOpus 11y ago
Let me guess, your boring ass-accord does not have a turbocharger and the A4 did? Turbo lag is hard to avoid if you want the good power/weight of the turbocharged engine.
- kalms 11y ago
  I mean, if anything the speeder on my 2016 VW Touran 150hp 1.4 TSI is too responsive. That's probably more of an issue with DSG7. (It has a compressor afaik)
- daveguy 11y ago
  Yup. It was a turbo. I thought that turbo issues had been resolved in the early 2000s with proper transmission tuning and turbo-on. Apparently audi did a piss poor job of it until the the last 2-3 years (according to other posters). I'll take a few less horsepower with better responsiveness any day. I'm not trying to beat anyone in a 1/4 mile -- i'd much rather the car be enjoyable and responsive. Half a second can easily mean the difference between getting out of the way of someone coming up on you not paying attention and getting rear ended. Hopefully they got their shit together. TL;DR: .,-' is better than ___/
  - encoderer 11y ago
    A turbo is a better driving experience on the highway. So, it's really just about buying the right car for your driving tastes. There is no way to "solve" turbo lag. The compressor needs torque before it can produce boost. At the high end you can do a twin turbo. Not in an a4. And you could say something similar about having necessary power on the highway to avoid a collision. Tldr: It's all subjective.
    - kerryfalk 11y ago
      A turbo is a better driving experience on the highway. How so? I would perceive no difference between a turbo'd engine and a Naturally Aspirated one while driving on the highway at a constant speed. Engine responsiveness as per the parent poster would be the same within the city vs. on the highway. There is no way to "solve" turbo lag. I'd suggest researching variable vein turbos. BMW has done it very successfully in their e92 335s. Even resulting in a flat torque curve at very low RPM. It's impressive engineering.
bflesch 11y ago
That's an interesting observation. Obviously it doesn't take 20 sec for an A8, but you really need to pay a lot of money for it to have a reasonable acceleration of ~5 sec. And I think this is the most striking thing about Tesla's cars, because right now, every potential Audi buyer knows that every single Tesla car will beat the 5 seconds 0 to 60 you bought with a lot of money (speaking of mainstream models).
- Shengbo 11y ago
  I believe what he meant is that it takes 15(to launch the software) + 5.4(0-60) = 20.4 seconds to get from getting into the car to 60 mph.
  - daveguy 11y ago
    That is what I meant. And if we count turbo lag it's zero to 1 mph in 15.5 seconds, unless you're on a hill. :) I would like to drive a tesla. That low end immediate torque is probably a lot of fun.
    - varjag 11y ago
      You don't need a Tesla, it's the same even on the low end EVs (and probably many of hybrids). Not having a wax pedal feels amazing.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

hangonhn 11y ago

Wow, OK, good to know I'm not the only one who feels this way about German cars. I don't understand why they're so bad at software. My BMW takes that long to boot up the nav too! One of my biggest reasons to get a Tesla 3 is that they seem to be much better at software and seems to understand general computing and the flexibility that comes with it.

woah 11y ago
I don't know anything about software engineering in Germany or at BMW, but knowing German culture, I imagine it is due to some combination of waterfall processes, top down management, fixed specifications, and every engineer being required to have a master's or phd.
rconti 11y ago
I know some BMWs have Navigation systems that begin to boot as soon as you unlock the car. It's a clever solution -- although my dad ran into battery discharge issues because of it; if you don't drive much (retired) so the car sits a lot, and then all of your trips are short trips... sooner or later you might kill the battery.
- yason 11y ago
  Where might you need navigation on short trips? I assume you can just turn the navigation off in a BMW so that it doesn't prevent using the rest of the functionality.
  - rconti 11y ago
    Well, it boots (and runs) in the background. I don't think any modern nav system can be truly switched off, even if the display to the radio/nav/etc system is switched off. Again, because of boot times, it makes sense to have it begin booting as soon as the car is unlocked, and to run in the background the entire time the car is running.
gumby 11y ago
I can tell you the reason at Daimler (Mercedes -- did some work with them in Sindelfingen): They care about the car and the driving experience (sound and reliability of the motor, doors etc). The radio and such? Not mission critical, so they just write a spec and outsource it. You don't get any advancement for worrying about those things. I've owned a bunch of mercedeses over the year and they've generally been pretty good, though expensive to fix when something does go wrong. My mini, by contrast, has a "sport" button. The documentation says "makes the car more sporty". The current "S" models have a turbocharger not a supercharger. 40% of the manual is on the entertainment system. I think these are all great. (Of course at the end of the day that mini is a BMW so has all the fit and finish problems I experienced with BMWs before I gave up on them. Fun to drive but never again!)

beachstartup 11y ago

high end german cars (like the really high end stuff, the AMGs, Ms, RSs, turbo S's of the world) are all nicer than model S's. tesla just attracts the attention of non-car people who don't have much experience with six figure cars.

varjag 11y ago
could it be because it's a 5 figure car
- rubbingalcohol 11y ago
  most of the 6 figure cars people are talking about in this thread are 5 figure cars before you spec them out, just like the model S.
  - varjag 11y ago
    AMG (base price of 130,000 USD) and S are not in the same price league, no matter how much you trick the latter out. Sure, extra 40-50k usd can buy you nice leather trim..
    - kerryfalk 11y ago
      C Class AMGs start around $80k.
    - beachstartup 11y ago
      AMG makes a lot of models with a lot of prices. they're all pretty much nicer than the tesla S.
exclusiv 11y ago
It you are right - that Telsa buyers buy their near 100k cars without knowing about OR looking at the competition - then you might as well be long on them since their sales & marketing is way more efficient. Your dig is actually a win for Tesla and a bad sign for the ones you mentioned. I'm not challenging that, in general, Tesla attracts "non-car people" but the suggestion that people that buy AMGs, RSs and 911s are "car people" is nonsense. I'll give you M though. Regardless of who buys what, because who cares.. let's compare the acceleration performance of a few (0-60 and 1/4 mi): Tesla Model S P90D - 2.8s / 10.9s Audi RS - 3.3s / 11.5s 2016 Mercedes AMG GT S - 3.1 / 11.2 2017 Porsche 911 Turbo S - 2.8 / 11.1 These cars aren't even in the same retail category and Tesla is outperforming those that cost a lot more. Very few 4-door cars offer what the Tesla Model S offers. It's a new brand and seen as anti-establishment, there's not many of them yet, they sell direct and they seem to communicate very well with their customers. Their software and in-car technology is great. People are reacting to many things that Tesla is doing right. It will be interesting to see how they do as they move downward. It hasn't seemed to hurt Mercedes.

Cthulhu_ 11y ago

I haven't actually used a Tesla, but based on just screenshots... they really need a designer for their software. I mean, it had gradients. That's why I'm kinda hoping Apple ups their game and makes car navigation work. No reason why they couldn't use smartphone hardware and just keep it in low power standby.

FullyFunctional 11y ago
Well, I have two (2012 & 2014) and let me tell you: the UI is great; all important touch screen buttons are near one edge of the frame, allowing blind muscle memory to actually work. I really don't care one iota what the color or gradient is. I also have many iDevices and frankly the Tesla UI wouldn't be improved by iOS/CarPlay-style UI.
- bflesch 11y ago
  The great thing about teslas is that they can instantly roll out features like user themes or "flat design". Every time my Audi is at the garage they take ~15 minutes and a special-purpose Laptop to update some arcane piece of software in the car (fixing bugs). It's such a huge shift in mindset and operations for the incumbents they won't be able to make it. Recent models still come with a sim car slot so you can get real-time updates on the map.
  - vvanders 11y ago
    There was some stuff floating around a while back saying that the repair & software update agreement that some mfgrs have would contractually prevent them from even being able to do OTAs. I've been saying a while Tesla's competitive advantage isn't batteries or electric motors(these are pretty well understood) but in software. They can aggregate statistics across 100k+ cars and determine how people really use cars as opposed to guesses or surveys which are not nearly as accurate. Combine that with monthly/bi-monthly OTAs and you've got a good chance for disruption.

gthtjtkt 11y ago

> Apart from the actual software running on the cars, I think German manufacturers still have very high quality interior in their flagship models. Motor Trend's Chevy Camaro SS vs. BMW M4 review is pretty telling. They rated the $46,000 Camaro better than the $81,000 M4 in almost every category, including interior features. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I

shinglesbell 11y ago
Motor trend??
bflesch 11y ago
80k for M4 is also totally overblown. The 4 series is very recent - I've actually never seen one in Germany up until now.
- gthtjtkt 11y ago
  > 80k for M4 is also totally overblown Really? Even though it was still missing features that a Chevrolet had? Like satellite radio, a heated steering wheel, and ventilated seats? You can easily get an M4 up to $90k ($100k+ if you make it a convertible).
  - bflesch 11y ago
    I actually meant that I think with 80k BMW is overcharging for the M4 by a huge margin. As you said, you can get the same or even more for way less money spent :)
    - kerryfalk 11y ago
      ? The M4 is basically an M3 - they've been around that price range for quite a while. What else can you obtain with similar performance numbers and fit and finish for "way less money spent"?

ryanmarsh 11y ago

LOL, the software on the 2016 Cadillacs, absolutely shameful. I'd be so embarrassed if I worked on that team. Apple Car Play is the only good thing about the software in those cars.

mikepalmer 11y ago

Re Tesla versus BMW and Mercedes: It's true the interior of the Tesla is spare, but you could also call it clean. The Mercedes S550 has higher quality materials, but the interior is pretty busy/glitzy I think. BMW is also quite high quality materials, and cleaner design than the Mercedes. Tesla materials are not as nice, I have to say. However: 1. Both the BMW and Mercedes infotainment systems are _profoundly_ clunky compared to the Tesla. Tesla is far, far ahead - not only with the 17" screen, but also UI. Cannot overemphasize this. The Tesla is a pleasure to use & they are clearly working to minimize # of clicks to get a task done - when will BMW get a clue about this?? 2. When you press the pedal, the Model S accelerates _right now_. It is like piloting a UFO: car was there; now car is here. This makes the driving experience totally different in traffic. You see an opening in traffic, and pow, you can take it. It's frustrating to drive a gas car after getting used to this. Likewise handling is excellent - the weight of the battery placed so low in the car makes it stick to the road like a go cart. I used to have a BMW M3... so much noise and fuss to accelerate! In the Tesla, it's silent, you just pull away from people effortlessly. I think Tesla is actually under-marketing the driveability. It is not even the 0-60 time that matters: it's the very low latency.