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PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

105 points by tshtf 11y ago

mc32 11y ago
Great political move on PayPals part. And good social move to put pressure on the politics of NC. But... This is mostly for show. If they really meant it they would not do business in Uganda, DRC, Kazakhstan, etc. places where it's de jure illegal to be out as LGBT. So, while the side effect of their PR is good, it's more or less a side effect of PR for them. I'll believe their intentions when the move out of all places which have medieval anti LGBT laws.
- nrinaudo 11y ago
  You're not wrong, but I'll take self motivated good deeds over apathy any day.
- daj40 11y ago
  http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2016/04/hb-2-authorpaypal-takes-hypocritical-stand-in.html http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/... Local Charlotte paper kind of agrees, it would be interesting to see companies pull out of places like China and Saudi Arabia, given the investment that has been made already, and the loss of growth that would come from that. Essentially, the company would have to put social issues as a priority over being competitive, because I can assure you that someone else with lower morals would take that business. Would be a very hard stance for companies to take with share holders.
- caseysoftware 11y ago
  Exactly, it's virtue signaling. This week, it's fashionable to attack and punish North Carolina. Next week, it will be somewhere else, probably also in the US. But Paypal will never cease business in Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the Muslim world where the government executes gay people. We shouldn't celebrate or support people "standing for their beliefs" when they're not actually risking anything.
  - daj40 11y ago
    I wouldn't say they're risking nothing. Sure, they're not shutting down existing offices and removing themselves from markets, but they probably walked away from money they wont get back. I'm sure there were legal fees, plus people they might have already begun to recruit. So yes, its not a large risk, but its not like it didn't come at a loss for them.
- makomk 11y ago
  I don't think it is just for show. If they'd gone ahead and set up an office as planned in North Carolina, it'd mean their employees working there would've been directly affected by the law in question. As far as I know, Paypal don't have offices in Uganda, DRC, Kazakhstan, etc and they're still doing business with North Carolina, just not willing to set up an office there and force LGBT folks to live and work somewhere with such hostile laws in order to work for them.
alistproducer2 11y ago
Good, I hope more companies follow. I understand some people's reservations with how fast the cultural landscape is changing. The biggest problem I have is underhanded tactics, asinine euphemisms, and feigned naiveté by the people trying to pass these laws. If you truly feel you are on the right side, why try (so feebly) to hide your intentions? You are either a brave culture warrior fighting for what's right or you're a cowardly bigot. You can't be both.
zeveb 11y ago
Absolutely shameful for PayPal. This is not about equality and inclusion, but rather about using government violence to force people to support that which they oppose. A black baker should not be required to bake a cake for the KKK; a homosexual florist should not be required to provide flowers to the Westboro Baptist Church; neither should a Christian baker or florist or software developer be forced to employ his art and skill in service of something which he opposes, and which opposes his belief system.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  But PayPal should be required to exist in NC?
  - zeveb 11y ago
    Oh, PayPal may do whatever they want, including advocating for the violent coercion of conscientious objectors, but I won't applaud them for doing that.
    - saboot 11y ago
      You have no understanding of what was actually passed
- throwaway5752 11y ago
  That would be interesting if it were in any way relevant to what HB2 were about. * it overturns a local law regarding who can use a bathroom, and removes the ability for anyone but the state to legislate that (takes power away from cities and counties) * it removes the ability of city and counties to enforce hiring standards on government contractors (minimum wage, discrimination practices, safety standards) in any way whatsoever. * it effectively undoes the state employment discrimination laws for all classes of employees. You have to file discrimination charges in federal courts (of which their are fewer, have higher filing fees, and shorter windows to file under federal law). Since you seem generally ignorant of the law, this is a good explanation :http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article68401147.html http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/ar... It is particularly deplorable that they demonized transsexuals to pass the less popular/otherwise more difficult to pass portions of the bill. It was clearly just a way of threatening people in primaries if they didn't run against the bill that was passed in a highly unusual emergency session. But... assuming you know all this now, what you propose is shameful. PayPal is under no obligation to 1) not have ethics/standards at a corporate level or 2) hire people and open facilities in a state it doesn't want to do business in. The bakers/florists can do whatever they want (and could before/after this bill), but they cannot benefit from the payroll taxes collected by NC from the PayPal employees that will now be hired elsewhere. Shame on you for either not thinking about your argument or being dishonest. It's an important issue and should be distracted from/intentionally obfuscated.
stblack 11y ago
This is the first time I have ever read news that reflects PayPal in a positive light. Never thought I would ever write these words: way to go, PayPal!
- gist 11y ago
  I view it as dangerous actually. That is corporations with money, power and lawyers determining and overriding voters in yet another way. Doesn't matter how you see this particular issue. The next time it could go in another direction. [1] [1] Live by the sword, die by the sword.
  - rconti 11y ago
    They already do, for tax breaks, regulatory arbitrage, etc.. We might as well cheer it being used for good.
  - oliwarner 11y ago
    Overriding? They're not writing the law here, they're going where the best laws are (or where the worst aren't). NC gets to keep its shitty laws, PayPal just won't be part of it. What's your alternative here?
    - gist 11y ago
      No this is a bit different. They are publicly announcing it in a way that says "we don't approve and here is your punishment for taking this route". Not to mention what about the harm that comes to the citizens who would have held those jobs as well as the other economic impact of the decision? All to citizens who might not have had a say in choosing this outcome? I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues.
      - Avenger42 11y ago
        > I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues. Several years ago, in response to a request that Apple commit to only agree to measures that wouldn't impact the bottom line, Tim Cook told an activist investor "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." (It was in response to a question about Apple's environmental stance, but Tim likened it to a request to ignore accessibility issues.) If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment and go to a company that will ignore social issues.
joshuaheard 11y ago
The law requires men to use the men's room, and women to use the women's room. I don't see the problem with that. If it's really an issue, why can't PayPal just put a third bathroom in its facility for any gender?
- gecko 11y ago
  The law also bars cities from protecting LGBT rights, and bars individuals of any of the remaining protected classes for suing if they're discriminated against in the first place--effectively gutting the entire antidiscrimination law. Calling this "the bathroom bill" was a shrewd marketing move on the legislature's side, but there are some really strong reasons to condemn this bill even if you do agree with the bathroom part.
  - joshuaheard 11y ago
    I read the law, and I don't see where it does that. I don't want my daughter going into a public restroom that is shared by a man, whether he is dressed as a man or not, or thinks he is a woman. The law provides an accommodation for single stall bathrooms for any gender. I think Paypal is being the troll here.
    - EdwardMSmith 11y ago
      > I don't want my daughter going into a public restroom that is shared by a man, whether he is dressed as a man or not. Why? What is the underlying reason for that? Is it different if your (hypothetical?) son of the same age might have a woman (regardless of dress) in with him? I'm genuinely curious.
      - joshuaheard 11y ago
        No, I don't want my 10 year old daughter seeing strange men urinating and defecating, or in various stages of undress in a public restroom. But, if the issue is whether we should have separate bathrooms for the genders, let's have that conversation instead of forcing it on society in the guise of discrimination.
iends 11y ago
Too bad the city of Charlotte was the city that passed the law in the first place. So you're taking a stand against NC by hurting Charlotte who was just screwed over by the state gov too.
- Grishnakh 11y ago
  Sounds like Charlotte needs to start some kind of war with the state government. Maybe they should secede and start a new state.
throwaway5752 11y ago
I will be super interested in Red Hat. They threatened to leave for Atlanta in the past five years. This could not be further from their corporate values, and they have a highly distributed workforce and a big base of operations in Massachusetts and a fair number of people in the Bay Area. McCrory is a real idiot. The money in NC comes from the cities. They may have won a Pyrrhic victory in the gerrymandering, but now that the rural districts have this power to drive legislation, they are going to drive companies/money right out of Asheville (brewing, tourism), Charlotte (finance/finance tech), and Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill (software R&D and biotech). PayPal isn't the first news. NC lost a startup incubator that was going to start a local presence already. There is more to this, and it's going to end the governors' national political ambitions as well has harm the economy of NC for decades. edit: if it doesn't get overturned (in its entirety) immediately when the legislation gets back in session or through the courts, which is already in progress.
- Grishnakh 11y ago
  Well, the people of NC are getting exactly what they deserve. They voted for this. And spare me the whining about gerrymandering. The Governor is elected by everyone in the state; gerrymandering has no effect on that election. If this were really an issue of gerrymandering, we would have seen a crappy bill passed by the Legislature, and sent to the governor, and promptly vetoed because the governor more closely represents the average people in the state. That didn't happen.
  - throwaway5752 11y ago
    Well, technically not. A roughly 50/50 turnout resulted in one party controlling the general assembly around census/redistricting time. You cannot make an honest case that it wasn't an aggressive redistricting based on a thin majority, and the governor wouldn't have had to veto anything if this bill didn't make it out of the house (which if would not have, in the pre-redistricting NCGA). The governor is at high risk to lose his reelection to the state AG later this year because of this and his perception of being in the pocket of his former employer (Duke Energy) because of his behavior in several high profile coal fly ash pond industrial accidents. He positioned himself as a social moderate and business friendly, and he has spent all his capital and then some on this. edit: Not sure how this comes off as whining. I am giving an honest account of this bill/the NC political background as I can. You're obviously right, the voters own this in the end.
topbanana 11y ago
Great - if only PayPal cared as much for its customers as its employees
pklausler 11y ago
Some behavior is its own punishment. What did NC expect, an influx of tech businesses drawn to crazy hateful laws?
throwaway5752 11y ago
I am bummed this went off the front page (presumably flagging/downvoting because of people's political disagreements). * this effects Y Combinator https://ei.ncsu.edu/y-combinator/ https://ei.ncsu.edu/y-combinator/ * it effects Google Ventures: http://recode.net/2016/04/01/google-ventures-north-carolina-hb2-ban/ http://recode.net/2016/04/01/google-ventures-north-carolina-... * There are local incubators and less formal groups of local startups against it.
daj40 11y ago
This was NC's Commerce Secretary's response. Not very well thought through. http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/04/05/n-ccommerce-secretary-doesnt-foresee-economic.html http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/04/05/n-ccomme...
draw_down 11y ago
Elections have consequences, as they say.
funkonaut 11y ago
So will PayPal shut down their office in India? Doubt it.
grej 11y ago
Is this the same PayPal that does business with more than 20 countries where homosexuality is illegal, including 5 where it's punishable by death? The NC law is bad but this from PayPal is hypocrisy of the highest order.

105 points by tshtf 11y ago

mc32 11y ago

Great political move on PayPals part. And good social move to put pressure on the politics of NC. But... This is mostly for show. If they really meant it they would not do business in Uganda, DRC, Kazakhstan, etc. places where it's de jure illegal to be out as LGBT. So, while the side effect of their PR is good, it's more or less a side effect of PR for them. I'll believe their intentions when the move out of all places which have medieval anti LGBT laws.

nrinaudo 11y ago
You're not wrong, but I'll take self motivated good deeds over apathy any day.
daj40 11y ago
http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2016/04/hb-2-authorpaypal-takes-hypocritical-stand-in.html http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/... Local Charlotte paper kind of agrees, it would be interesting to see companies pull out of places like China and Saudi Arabia, given the investment that has been made already, and the loss of growth that would come from that. Essentially, the company would have to put social issues as a priority over being competitive, because I can assure you that someone else with lower morals would take that business. Would be a very hard stance for companies to take with share holders.
caseysoftware 11y ago
Exactly, it's virtue signaling. This week, it's fashionable to attack and punish North Carolina. Next week, it will be somewhere else, probably also in the US. But Paypal will never cease business in Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the Muslim world where the government executes gay people. We shouldn't celebrate or support people "standing for their beliefs" when they're not actually risking anything.
- daj40 11y ago
  I wouldn't say they're risking nothing. Sure, they're not shutting down existing offices and removing themselves from markets, but they probably walked away from money they wont get back. I'm sure there were legal fees, plus people they might have already begun to recruit. So yes, its not a large risk, but its not like it didn't come at a loss for them.
makomk 11y ago
I don't think it is just for show. If they'd gone ahead and set up an office as planned in North Carolina, it'd mean their employees working there would've been directly affected by the law in question. As far as I know, Paypal don't have offices in Uganda, DRC, Kazakhstan, etc and they're still doing business with North Carolina, just not willing to set up an office there and force LGBT folks to live and work somewhere with such hostile laws in order to work for them.

alistproducer2 11y ago

Good, I hope more companies follow. I understand some people's reservations with how fast the cultural landscape is changing. The biggest problem I have is underhanded tactics, asinine euphemisms, and feigned naiveté by the people trying to pass these laws. If you truly feel you are on the right side, why try (so feebly) to hide your intentions? You are either a brave culture warrior fighting for what's right or you're a cowardly bigot. You can't be both.

zeveb 11y ago

Absolutely shameful for PayPal. This is not about equality and inclusion, but rather about using government violence to force people to support that which they oppose. A black baker should not be required to bake a cake for the KKK; a homosexual florist should not be required to provide flowers to the Westboro Baptist Church; neither should a Christian baker or florist or software developer be forced to employ his art and skill in service of something which he opposes, and which opposes his belief system.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
But PayPal should be required to exist in NC?
- zeveb 11y ago
  Oh, PayPal may do whatever they want, including advocating for the violent coercion of conscientious objectors, but I won't applaud them for doing that.
  - saboot 11y ago
    You have no understanding of what was actually passed
throwaway5752 11y ago
That would be interesting if it were in any way relevant to what HB2 were about. * it overturns a local law regarding who can use a bathroom, and removes the ability for anyone but the state to legislate that (takes power away from cities and counties) * it removes the ability of city and counties to enforce hiring standards on government contractors (minimum wage, discrimination practices, safety standards) in any way whatsoever. * it effectively undoes the state employment discrimination laws for all classes of employees. You have to file discrimination charges in federal courts (of which their are fewer, have higher filing fees, and shorter windows to file under federal law). Since you seem generally ignorant of the law, this is a good explanation :http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article68401147.html http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/ar... It is particularly deplorable that they demonized transsexuals to pass the less popular/otherwise more difficult to pass portions of the bill. It was clearly just a way of threatening people in primaries if they didn't run against the bill that was passed in a highly unusual emergency session. But... assuming you know all this now, what you propose is shameful. PayPal is under no obligation to 1) not have ethics/standards at a corporate level or 2) hire people and open facilities in a state it doesn't want to do business in. The bakers/florists can do whatever they want (and could before/after this bill), but they cannot benefit from the payroll taxes collected by NC from the PayPal employees that will now be hired elsewhere. Shame on you for either not thinking about your argument or being dishonest. It's an important issue and should be distracted from/intentionally obfuscated.

stblack 11y ago

This is the first time I have ever read news that reflects PayPal in a positive light. Never thought I would ever write these words: way to go, PayPal!

gist 11y ago
I view it as dangerous actually. That is corporations with money, power and lawyers determining and overriding voters in yet another way. Doesn't matter how you see this particular issue. The next time it could go in another direction. [1] [1] Live by the sword, die by the sword.
- rconti 11y ago
  They already do, for tax breaks, regulatory arbitrage, etc.. We might as well cheer it being used for good.
- oliwarner 11y ago
  Overriding? They're not writing the law here, they're going where the best laws are (or where the worst aren't). NC gets to keep its shitty laws, PayPal just won't be part of it. What's your alternative here?
  - gist 11y ago
    No this is a bit different. They are publicly announcing it in a way that says "we don't approve and here is your punishment for taking this route". Not to mention what about the harm that comes to the citizens who would have held those jobs as well as the other economic impact of the decision? All to citizens who might not have had a say in choosing this outcome? I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues.
    - Avenger42 11y ago
      > I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues. Several years ago, in response to a request that Apple commit to only agree to measures that wouldn't impact the bottom line, Tim Cook told an activist investor "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." (It was in response to a question about Apple's environmental stance, but Tim likened it to a request to ignore accessibility issues.) If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment and go to a company that will ignore social issues.

joshuaheard 11y ago

The law requires men to use the men's room, and women to use the women's room. I don't see the problem with that. If it's really an issue, why can't PayPal just put a third bathroom in its facility for any gender?

gecko 11y ago
The law also bars cities from protecting LGBT rights, and bars individuals of any of the remaining protected classes for suing if they're discriminated against in the first place--effectively gutting the entire antidiscrimination law. Calling this "the bathroom bill" was a shrewd marketing move on the legislature's side, but there are some really strong reasons to condemn this bill even if you do agree with the bathroom part.
- joshuaheard 11y ago
  I read the law, and I don't see where it does that. I don't want my daughter going into a public restroom that is shared by a man, whether he is dressed as a man or not, or thinks he is a woman. The law provides an accommodation for single stall bathrooms for any gender. I think Paypal is being the troll here.
  - EdwardMSmith 11y ago
    > I don't want my daughter going into a public restroom that is shared by a man, whether he is dressed as a man or not. Why? What is the underlying reason for that? Is it different if your (hypothetical?) son of the same age might have a woman (regardless of dress) in with him? I'm genuinely curious.
    - joshuaheard 11y ago
      No, I don't want my 10 year old daughter seeing strange men urinating and defecating, or in various stages of undress in a public restroom. But, if the issue is whether we should have separate bathrooms for the genders, let's have that conversation instead of forcing it on society in the guise of discrimination.

iends 11y ago

Too bad the city of Charlotte was the city that passed the law in the first place. So you're taking a stand against NC by hurting Charlotte who was just screwed over by the state gov too.

Grishnakh 11y ago
Sounds like Charlotte needs to start some kind of war with the state government. Maybe they should secede and start a new state.

throwaway5752 11y ago

I will be super interested in Red Hat. They threatened to leave for Atlanta in the past five years. This could not be further from their corporate values, and they have a highly distributed workforce and a big base of operations in Massachusetts and a fair number of people in the Bay Area. McCrory is a real idiot. The money in NC comes from the cities. They may have won a Pyrrhic victory in the gerrymandering, but now that the rural districts have this power to drive legislation, they are going to drive companies/money right out of Asheville (brewing, tourism), Charlotte (finance/finance tech), and Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill (software R&D and biotech). PayPal isn't the first news. NC lost a startup incubator that was going to start a local presence already. There is more to this, and it's going to end the governors' national political ambitions as well has harm the economy of NC for decades. edit: if it doesn't get overturned (in its entirety) immediately when the legislation gets back in session or through the courts, which is already in progress.

Grishnakh 11y ago
Well, the people of NC are getting exactly what they deserve. They voted for this. And spare me the whining about gerrymandering. The Governor is elected by everyone in the state; gerrymandering has no effect on that election. If this were really an issue of gerrymandering, we would have seen a crappy bill passed by the Legislature, and sent to the governor, and promptly vetoed because the governor more closely represents the average people in the state. That didn't happen.
- throwaway5752 11y ago
  Well, technically not. A roughly 50/50 turnout resulted in one party controlling the general assembly around census/redistricting time. You cannot make an honest case that it wasn't an aggressive redistricting based on a thin majority, and the governor wouldn't have had to veto anything if this bill didn't make it out of the house (which if would not have, in the pre-redistricting NCGA). The governor is at high risk to lose his reelection to the state AG later this year because of this and his perception of being in the pocket of his former employer (Duke Energy) because of his behavior in several high profile coal fly ash pond industrial accidents. He positioned himself as a social moderate and business friendly, and he has spent all his capital and then some on this. edit: Not sure how this comes off as whining. I am giving an honest account of this bill/the NC political background as I can. You're obviously right, the voters own this in the end.

topbanana 11y ago

Great - if only PayPal cared as much for its customers as its employees

pklausler 11y ago

Some behavior is its own punishment. What did NC expect, an influx of tech businesses drawn to crazy hateful laws?

throwaway5752 11y ago

I am bummed this went off the front page (presumably flagging/downvoting because of people's political disagreements). * this effects Y Combinator https://ei.ncsu.edu/y-combinator/ https://ei.ncsu.edu/y-combinator/ * it effects Google Ventures: http://recode.net/2016/04/01/google-ventures-north-carolina-hb2-ban/ http://recode.net/2016/04/01/google-ventures-north-carolina-... * There are local incubators and less formal groups of local startups against it.

daj40 11y ago

This was NC's Commerce Secretary's response. Not very well thought through. http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/04/05/n-ccommerce-secretary-doesnt-foresee-economic.html http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/04/05/n-ccomme...

draw_down 11y ago

Elections have consequences, as they say.

funkonaut 11y ago

So will PayPal shut down their office in India? Doubt it.

grej 11y ago

Is this the same PayPal that does business with more than 20 countries where homosexuality is illegal, including 5 where it's punishable by death? The NC law is bad but this from PayPal is hypocrisy of the highest order.