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The study was called misleading by a spokesman for Compete America, a coalition of vendors, universities and other sponsors of H-1B visa holders. As someone ve

by ajju 17y ago

The study was called misleading by a spokesman for Compete America, a coalition of vendors, universities and other sponsors of H-1B visa holders. As someone very familiar with the visa, I can tell you the article is not misleading. Comparisons to bonded labor always come to my mind when I think about the visa. While these may be a bit far fetched since any kind of visa is opt-in, the fact that the employer can kick an employee out of the country by firing them means that they exert extraordinary control over the employee. What is worse, and what the article doesn't cover, is that by applying for a permanent residency permit (green card) for an employee, the employer all but guarantees that the employee has to stay with them for 4-7 years. That is how long it takes to go through the initial stages of getting a permanent residency and abandoning the process in the middle means you have to restart it. They also exert even more control over the employee during this period because not only can they kick him/her out of the country by firing them, they can cause the time, effort and expense he/she incurred on the green card thus far to be wasted.

w00pla 17y ago
That is true. The UK's highly skilled VISA system is much better - if you have a certain education + X years experience you get a visa and you can work and change jobs. With the US system, you can't even change jobs (if you quit, you have to find a new job in a short time, otherwise you get kicked out).
barrkel 17y ago
Indeed, and this is part of the reason why I haven't moved to the US, even though I have a H-1B visa.
omfut 17y ago
It takes more than 10 years to get GC. It depends on which category( EB1,EB2 or EB3) you fall into. Many big companies file only EB3 and it takes more than 10 years.
yummyfajitas 17y ago
By the time the employee comes to work for the company, the company has already committed quite a bit of resources into the employee. It doesn't seem all that unfair that the employee now has a somewhat greater obligation to the company, particularly since the employee chose this route. Similarly, my sister's employer invested several grand in training her in Crossfit. She is now obligated to teach Crossfit for a year at a fixed wage, or else repay (12 - # of months worked)/12 x 100% of her training costs. Is that also "bonded labor"?
- ajju 17y ago
  Being committed for 1 year is very different from being committed for 4 to 10 years(as another commenter below pointed out). The "significant resources" amount to around $4000 for an H1B if the company files the expedited visa and $2500 (IIRC) for the default route. This is significantly less than the monthly salary of a programmer in most places. For a green card, the expenses are roughly double but often shared by the company and the employee. So the scale here is very different. What's more, your sister is not going to be thrown out of the country if she leaves Crossfit before the year ends. I think it makes sense to have a pay-back agreement for legal expenses in the case of an H1B but not to have legal immigration status dependent on that specific job. Skilled employment based immigration should be based on the immigrant's level of skills, not tied to a specific job.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    First, I think you are greatly underestimating the cost of an H1B. It's more than just the application fee. For example, the company must create a job description so narrow that only the desired candidate can fit it. They must then advertise and otherwise attempt to recruit an American for that position, and a lawyer must make sure they tried hard enough. Once lawyers get involved, things get expensive. As for getting thrown out of the country, it's my understanding that someone on an H1B is in the country for the sole purpose of relieving a shortage of skilled labor. Once the job is gone, they have no reason to remain in the US. They can also leave their job at any time. In contrast, bonded labor can not leave their job until their debts are paid off. In short, I think you want the H1B system to be something that it isn't. The sole goal is to relieve a shortage of skilled labor. There is no reason we should make it easier for people to leverage an H1B into citizenship. Now, I certainly think we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants, subject to much greater scrutiny than we already have [1]. But that's completely separate from the matter of visas to provide temporary labor. [1] I think we do a terrible job of making sure immigrants are a good cultural fit for the US and assimilating them once they get here.
    - ajju 17y ago
      Actually I have been on both sides of the table on an H-1B visa, so I am quite certain that I am not underestimating the cost of the H1B visa. The government fees are $2320 for a non-expedited application and $3320 for an expedited application. Lawyers usually charge $1000. Although this, obviously, will vary by firm and seniority of the lawyer in question. The narrow job description and advertisements are applicable only to the green card where the total cost would probably reach over $8000, but again it is often shared by the employee and the employer. The job description is a few hours of work by an immigration paralegal or lawyer and newspaper ads should not increase the cost by much more. I don't want the H1B system to be something it is not, the government has already muddled the intent of the system by allowing H1Bs to apply for greencards. In fact it is probably the only practical way of getting a green card as a skilled immigrant, but government chokes the supply of those at will, making it unpredictable. If the sole goal of the H1B is to relieve temporary shortage of labor, H1Bs should not be allowed to apply for green cards. In the end, I think we have arrived at the same conclusions: that we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants and establish a system independent of the H1B visa for it. I don't know how you intend to test for cultural fit, but I am open to listening to ideas there. I was dreading putting the bonded labor comparison there, which is why I added the caveat. But a bonded laborer cannot leave their job until their debts are paid off, and an H1B with a greencard application pending cannot leave their job until they get a greencard (or risk losing whatever life/assets the have built up here). I see similarities there, although, obviously the two are not identical. It is easy to say that immigrants should not expect to build a life and live here permanently, just because they can apply for a green card. However, the current approach to immigration causes uncertainty which hurts both the country (because very skilled immigrants, given a choice, will not accept the uncertainty) and immigrants themselves (for obvious reasons).

by ajju 17y ago

w00pla 17y ago

That is true. The UK's highly skilled VISA system is much better - if you have a certain education + X years experience you get a visa and you can work and change jobs. With the US system, you can't even change jobs (if you quit, you have to find a new job in a short time, otherwise you get kicked out).

barrkel 17y ago

Indeed, and this is part of the reason why I haven't moved to the US, even though I have a H-1B visa.

omfut 17y ago

It takes more than 10 years to get GC. It depends on which category( EB1,EB2 or EB3) you fall into. Many big companies file only EB3 and it takes more than 10 years.

yummyfajitas 17y ago

By the time the employee comes to work for the company, the company has already committed quite a bit of resources into the employee. It doesn't seem all that unfair that the employee now has a somewhat greater obligation to the company, particularly since the employee chose this route. Similarly, my sister's employer invested several grand in training her in Crossfit. She is now obligated to teach Crossfit for a year at a fixed wage, or else repay (12 - # of months worked)/12 x 100% of her training costs. Is that also "bonded labor"?

ajju 17y ago
Being committed for 1 year is very different from being committed for 4 to 10 years(as another commenter below pointed out). The "significant resources" amount to around $4000 for an H1B if the company files the expedited visa and $2500 (IIRC) for the default route. This is significantly less than the monthly salary of a programmer in most places. For a green card, the expenses are roughly double but often shared by the company and the employee. So the scale here is very different. What's more, your sister is not going to be thrown out of the country if she leaves Crossfit before the year ends. I think it makes sense to have a pay-back agreement for legal expenses in the case of an H1B but not to have legal immigration status dependent on that specific job. Skilled employment based immigration should be based on the immigrant's level of skills, not tied to a specific job.
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  First, I think you are greatly underestimating the cost of an H1B. It's more than just the application fee. For example, the company must create a job description so narrow that only the desired candidate can fit it. They must then advertise and otherwise attempt to recruit an American for that position, and a lawyer must make sure they tried hard enough. Once lawyers get involved, things get expensive. As for getting thrown out of the country, it's my understanding that someone on an H1B is in the country for the sole purpose of relieving a shortage of skilled labor. Once the job is gone, they have no reason to remain in the US. They can also leave their job at any time. In contrast, bonded labor can not leave their job until their debts are paid off. In short, I think you want the H1B system to be something that it isn't. The sole goal is to relieve a shortage of skilled labor. There is no reason we should make it easier for people to leverage an H1B into citizenship. Now, I certainly think we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants, subject to much greater scrutiny than we already have [1]. But that's completely separate from the matter of visas to provide temporary labor. [1] I think we do a terrible job of making sure immigrants are a good cultural fit for the US and assimilating them once they get here.
  - ajju 17y ago
    Actually I have been on both sides of the table on an H-1B visa, so I am quite certain that I am not underestimating the cost of the H1B visa. The government fees are $2320 for a non-expedited application and $3320 for an expedited application. Lawyers usually charge $1000. Although this, obviously, will vary by firm and seniority of the lawyer in question. The narrow job description and advertisements are applicable only to the green card where the total cost would probably reach over $8000, but again it is often shared by the employee and the employer. The job description is a few hours of work by an immigration paralegal or lawyer and newspaper ads should not increase the cost by much more. I don't want the H1B system to be something it is not, the government has already muddled the intent of the system by allowing H1Bs to apply for greencards. In fact it is probably the only practical way of getting a green card as a skilled immigrant, but government chokes the supply of those at will, making it unpredictable. If the sole goal of the H1B is to relieve temporary shortage of labor, H1Bs should not be allowed to apply for green cards. In the end, I think we have arrived at the same conclusions: that we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants and establish a system independent of the H1B visa for it. I don't know how you intend to test for cultural fit, but I am open to listening to ideas there. I was dreading putting the bonded labor comparison there, which is why I added the caveat. But a bonded laborer cannot leave their job until their debts are paid off, and an H1B with a greencard application pending cannot leave their job until they get a greencard (or risk losing whatever life/assets the have built up here). I see similarities there, although, obviously the two are not identical. It is easy to say that immigrants should not expect to build a life and live here permanently, just because they can apply for a green card. However, the current approach to immigration causes uncertainty which hurts both the country (because very skilled immigrants, given a choice, will not accept the uncertainty) and immigrants themselves (for obvious reasons).