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" They instructed me to unlock my phone and other personal accounts. " - That would suck. As one who has also been robbed at gunpoint (Redwood City, CA), I rem

" They instructed me to unlock my phone and other personal accounts. " - That would suck. As one who has also been robbed at gunpoint (Redwood City, CA), I remember clearly thinking - "Thankfully, all you're getting is a locked phone." With touch ID, my password is a 24 character ridiculous combination of special characters, numbers, and letters (only typed on power up) - so If I ever get mugged again (highly unlikely now that I'm living in Singapore) - at the very least, they'll get the iPhone unlocked with my touch ID, and if they ask me to enter my password - zero chance of them memorizing it without taking a lot of detailed notes - which, honestly, muggers usually aren't into.

pdkl95 11y ago
> instructed me to unlock my phone and other personal accounts. Given that use this tactic will probably increase over time, phones and other portable computers should really support duress passwords. The device should look like it unlocked properly, but really put everything in a type of read-only mode where writes and certain network transactions return success but don't actually do anything. Obviously, if network access (any type) is available, some sort of silent alarm can be raised at the same time.
- tempestn 11y ago
  I was thinking the same thing, but it would be very tricky to do right. If there's any tip-off, it could literally get someone killed. Plus, what if they just have you open your phone's browser to log into online banking? Not much the OS can do about that without making it obvious that the browser is locked down. You could claim to not use online banking, but would you be willing to risk your life? Or what about the email app? Making it read-only doesn't help much; giving a criminal read-only access to all your email would be a disaster. But again, it would be obvious something was up if the account was empty. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would be very difficult to do in a way that wouldn't be noticed, especially once it became common knowledge.
  - Bluestrike2 11y ago
    You just need to fool them for a few minutes until the mugger runs off. Everything could kick in after that or you could determine when the device has moved a significant distance after the duress password has been entered. In that short a time, your exposure is relatively limited. They can't get everything, and you could always record activity and use the network (that's still secretly active) to record what apps were opened during the exposure period, take periodic low-res screenshots that would show exactly what they were viewing, or even take a few mugger selfies. Upload it all in the background and send an email with everything the police might need to catch the little perp. No mugger is going to stick around longer than they have to. The need to get away quickly would dictate the design choices for such functionality. Maybe we'll get lucky and a few security developers at Apple/Google/etc. will read this discussion and get some good ideas to think about :).
  - ghshephard 11y ago
    Thankfully, my OCBC online banking only allows you to interact with existing accounts. If you want to do anything interesting, you need to have a separate (Physical, completely offline) token to add new accounts, and you need the same token to "sign" transactions over a certain $$$ figure.
  - melvinmt 11y ago
    Simple: You enter the duress password and suddenly, you have "bad connectivity".
    - function_seven 11y ago
      Yeah, that's the thing I want to do when someone has me at gunpoint! Make sure I suddenly have "bad connectivity". You know what would be the better thing to do in that situation? Make damn sure shit works and they get what they're looking for. I'll worry about cancelling credit cards, etc. later.
  - chris_overseas 11y ago
    Take a look at Cerberus [1], it has a lot of very helpful features that I haven't seen on other similar apps. Eg take silent photos on incorrect login attempts and email them to you, disable power-off, survive factory reset. I used it once successfully to recover my lost phone. It automatically sent photos to me of the person who found it, and I made my phone speak out a voice message asking them to please stay there while I came to collect it. The guy who found it was looking stunned when I arrived there a few minutes later. I'm not affiliated with Cerberus in any way, just a happy customer. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lsdroid.cerberus https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lsdroid.ce...
- Bluestrike2 11y ago
  That's... brilliant. You could do all sorts of things to protect the user's data while preserving the fiction that the device is unlocked and functioning as all you need to do is fake it for a few minutes to fool the mugger. After all, they don't stick around. You could force the device to self-wipe data storage after X minutes or force specific apps to 'crash' on open (email, 2FA apps, banking, etc.) where even offline access could be detrimental.
  - kristiandupont 11y ago
    ..and it could call for help.
    - Bluestrike2 11y ago
      Oops. Kind of blew right past that rather useful feature. Dial 911 and leave the microphone on, though it could lead to problems for the system in tracking down false alarms.
      - ashitlerferad 11y ago
        Don't forget turning on both of the cameras and streaming the video to 911.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- rdl 11y ago
  It probably makes more sense to just support remote-unlock and remote-password-change quickly/easily, after the fact. I wouldn't want to depend on duress passwords except if they worked exactly identically and ALSO sent a silent alarm. For post-contact response, maybe even an IVR system you can call (from a public phone or something) and give an audio or DTMF password. (I'd also like to get my phone droned after I move out of danger close radius, or the civilized city equivalent (police/bike gang/etc. show up at geolocation))
- PepeGomez 11y ago
  I think there is no way you would recall the password when you need it.
- lentil_soup 11y ago
  Having been robbed many times, including a kidnapping I can say that your logical thinking will go out of the window because of the nerves. I would find it difficult to remember a duress password and wouldn't trust myself with evaluating the situation properly to make the call whether to use it or not. I'd rather have an after-robbery mechanism to lock my phone once I am safe. When assaulted, just cooperate.
dclowd9901 11y ago
Isn't there an infiltration vector glibly called rubber hose cryptanalysis to describe this very thing? Nothing is ever 100% secure for this reason alone.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Houshalter 11y ago
  That reminds me of a thought I had recently. Often in movies and TV shows, someone will be torturing another for their secret information. And for some reason they always tell the truth. I've always wondered why movie characters don't lie more often in those situations. Because usually the torturer isn't in a position to confirm it's truth instantly, or sometimes at all. Passwords are the one exception to this. You can always confirm a password instantly from anywhere. But it doesn't need to be that way, you can have duress passwords. Truecrypt supports hidden archives, where entering the fake password unlocks a different encrypted folder with different files. The same thing thing is true on some "secure photo" apps for phones. For a phone, you would have a password that bricks the phone after a certain time limit, like 24 hours. But appears to work fine for the moment.
Bluestrike2 11y ago
I guess the hope would be that you have a smart mugger. A dumb one might shoot you on principle for forcing them to remember what they'd see as a ridiculous password. "Forget it man, keep the damn phone" is probably pretty unlikely. Unfortunately.
- dmoy 11y ago
  Most muggers don't actually want to kill people. Murder brings the cops a lot faster. Murder rate is like 25x less, and even less common for strangers. (Though like half of stranger murders are during robbery, so yea, just do what you're told)
  - Bluestrike2 11y ago
    Definitely. An intelligent mugger likely isn't going to pull the trigger unless they think they have to or that have no choice. Of course, you have almost zero control over that so that probably sounds rather trite. I was just joking about the dumb one shooting you, though I think any mugger would be pretty pissed if you rattle off a long gibberish password rather than "password1."
noja 11y ago
> without taking a lot of detailed notes - which, honestly, muggers usually aren't into. They could take a video.
- PepeGomez 11y ago
  They could tell you to change it to 1234.
tunichtgut 11y ago
...this shows what kind of hellhole the usa has become. even in a city near or in silicon valley, well armed criminals roam the streets...pp are "measuring" their heart with sensors while being robbed and tell the internet about this. a "sane" society?
- dvirsky 11y ago
  Actually crime rates in the US have been dropping steadily for decades. Thought personally, not living in the US, just the thought of being robbed is like science fiction to me. And it's not like I live in a great country, but things like this just almost never happen here. Gas stations and convenience stores get robbed sometimes, your apartment might be broken into, but someone on the street robbing you? I don't know a single person this had happened to.
  - morgante 11y ago
    It's not like it happens very often in the US either. I don't know anyone who's gotten mugged.
    - dvirsky 11y ago
      I looked up some international stats on robbery, but they don't differentiate between mugging of people on the street and robberies at businesses, banks, etc. The US has a rate about x3 higher than my country (Israel), but again, it doesn't tell you much.
      - morgante 11y ago
        Sure, but 3x a very low number is still a very low number. It's not like I think or worry about being robbed.
        dvirsky 11y ago
        For what it's worth, I don't either when I'm in the US.
venomsnake 11y ago
They could ask you to change it. Anyway - do as you are told. Devices are consumables. I would politely ask for my sim card and to make factory wipe though.
- hrrsn 11y ago
  This would be my only concern. "Uhh, do you mind if I just switch off Find my iPhone and reset the phone for you first?"

pdkl95 11y ago

> instructed me to unlock my phone and other personal accounts. Given that use this tactic will probably increase over time, phones and other portable computers should really support duress passwords. The device should look like it unlocked properly, but really put everything in a type of read-only mode where writes and certain network transactions return success but don't actually do anything. Obviously, if network access (any type) is available, some sort of silent alarm can be raised at the same time.

tempestn 11y ago
I was thinking the same thing, but it would be very tricky to do right. If there's any tip-off, it could literally get someone killed. Plus, what if they just have you open your phone's browser to log into online banking? Not much the OS can do about that without making it obvious that the browser is locked down. You could claim to not use online banking, but would you be willing to risk your life? Or what about the email app? Making it read-only doesn't help much; giving a criminal read-only access to all your email would be a disaster. But again, it would be obvious something was up if the account was empty. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would be very difficult to do in a way that wouldn't be noticed, especially once it became common knowledge.
- Bluestrike2 11y ago
  You just need to fool them for a few minutes until the mugger runs off. Everything could kick in after that or you could determine when the device has moved a significant distance after the duress password has been entered. In that short a time, your exposure is relatively limited. They can't get everything, and you could always record activity and use the network (that's still secretly active) to record what apps were opened during the exposure period, take periodic low-res screenshots that would show exactly what they were viewing, or even take a few mugger selfies. Upload it all in the background and send an email with everything the police might need to catch the little perp. No mugger is going to stick around longer than they have to. The need to get away quickly would dictate the design choices for such functionality. Maybe we'll get lucky and a few security developers at Apple/Google/etc. will read this discussion and get some good ideas to think about :).
- ghshephard 11y ago
  Thankfully, my OCBC online banking only allows you to interact with existing accounts. If you want to do anything interesting, you need to have a separate (Physical, completely offline) token to add new accounts, and you need the same token to "sign" transactions over a certain $$$ figure.
- melvinmt 11y ago
  Simple: You enter the duress password and suddenly, you have "bad connectivity".
  - function_seven 11y ago
    Yeah, that's the thing I want to do when someone has me at gunpoint! Make sure I suddenly have "bad connectivity". You know what would be the better thing to do in that situation? Make damn sure shit works and they get what they're looking for. I'll worry about cancelling credit cards, etc. later.
- chris_overseas 11y ago
  Take a look at Cerberus [1], it has a lot of very helpful features that I haven't seen on other similar apps. Eg take silent photos on incorrect login attempts and email them to you, disable power-off, survive factory reset. I used it once successfully to recover my lost phone. It automatically sent photos to me of the person who found it, and I made my phone speak out a voice message asking them to please stay there while I came to collect it. The guy who found it was looking stunned when I arrived there a few minutes later. I'm not affiliated with Cerberus in any way, just a happy customer. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lsdroid.cerberus https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lsdroid.ce...
Bluestrike2 11y ago
That's... brilliant. You could do all sorts of things to protect the user's data while preserving the fiction that the device is unlocked and functioning as all you need to do is fake it for a few minutes to fool the mugger. After all, they don't stick around. You could force the device to self-wipe data storage after X minutes or force specific apps to 'crash' on open (email, 2FA apps, banking, etc.) where even offline access could be detrimental.
- kristiandupont 11y ago
  ..and it could call for help.
  - Bluestrike2 11y ago
    Oops. Kind of blew right past that rather useful feature. Dial 911 and leave the microphone on, though it could lead to problems for the system in tracking down false alarms.
    - ashitlerferad 11y ago
      Don't forget turning on both of the cameras and streaming the video to 911.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
rdl 11y ago
It probably makes more sense to just support remote-unlock and remote-password-change quickly/easily, after the fact. I wouldn't want to depend on duress passwords except if they worked exactly identically and ALSO sent a silent alarm. For post-contact response, maybe even an IVR system you can call (from a public phone or something) and give an audio or DTMF password. (I'd also like to get my phone droned after I move out of danger close radius, or the civilized city equivalent (police/bike gang/etc. show up at geolocation))
PepeGomez 11y ago
I think there is no way you would recall the password when you need it.
lentil_soup 11y ago
Having been robbed many times, including a kidnapping I can say that your logical thinking will go out of the window because of the nerves. I would find it difficult to remember a duress password and wouldn't trust myself with evaluating the situation properly to make the call whether to use it or not. I'd rather have an after-robbery mechanism to lock my phone once I am safe. When assaulted, just cooperate.

dclowd9901 11y ago

Isn't there an infiltration vector glibly called rubber hose cryptanalysis to describe this very thing? Nothing is ever 100% secure for this reason alone.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Houshalter 11y ago
That reminds me of a thought I had recently. Often in movies and TV shows, someone will be torturing another for their secret information. And for some reason they always tell the truth. I've always wondered why movie characters don't lie more often in those situations. Because usually the torturer isn't in a position to confirm it's truth instantly, or sometimes at all. Passwords are the one exception to this. You can always confirm a password instantly from anywhere. But it doesn't need to be that way, you can have duress passwords. Truecrypt supports hidden archives, where entering the fake password unlocks a different encrypted folder with different files. The same thing thing is true on some "secure photo" apps for phones. For a phone, you would have a password that bricks the phone after a certain time limit, like 24 hours. But appears to work fine for the moment.

Bluestrike2 11y ago

I guess the hope would be that you have a smart mugger. A dumb one might shoot you on principle for forcing them to remember what they'd see as a ridiculous password. "Forget it man, keep the damn phone" is probably pretty unlikely. Unfortunately.

dmoy 11y ago
Most muggers don't actually want to kill people. Murder brings the cops a lot faster. Murder rate is like 25x less, and even less common for strangers. (Though like half of stranger murders are during robbery, so yea, just do what you're told)
- Bluestrike2 11y ago
  Definitely. An intelligent mugger likely isn't going to pull the trigger unless they think they have to or that have no choice. Of course, you have almost zero control over that so that probably sounds rather trite. I was just joking about the dumb one shooting you, though I think any mugger would be pretty pissed if you rattle off a long gibberish password rather than "password1."

noja 11y ago

> without taking a lot of detailed notes - which, honestly, muggers usually aren't into. They could take a video.

PepeGomez 11y ago
They could tell you to change it to 1234.

tunichtgut 11y ago

...this shows what kind of hellhole the usa has become. even in a city near or in silicon valley, well armed criminals roam the streets...pp are "measuring" their heart with sensors while being robbed and tell the internet about this. a "sane" society?

dvirsky 11y ago
Actually crime rates in the US have been dropping steadily for decades. Thought personally, not living in the US, just the thought of being robbed is like science fiction to me. And it's not like I live in a great country, but things like this just almost never happen here. Gas stations and convenience stores get robbed sometimes, your apartment might be broken into, but someone on the street robbing you? I don't know a single person this had happened to.
- morgante 11y ago
  It's not like it happens very often in the US either. I don't know anyone who's gotten mugged.
  - dvirsky 11y ago
    I looked up some international stats on robbery, but they don't differentiate between mugging of people on the street and robberies at businesses, banks, etc. The US has a rate about x3 higher than my country (Israel), but again, it doesn't tell you much.
    - morgante 11y ago
      Sure, but 3x a very low number is still a very low number. It's not like I think or worry about being robbed.
      - dvirsky 11y ago
        For what it's worth, I don't either when I'm in the US.

venomsnake 11y ago

They could ask you to change it. Anyway - do as you are told. Devices are consumables. I would politely ask for my sim card and to make factory wipe though.

hrrsn 11y ago
This would be my only concern. "Uhh, do you mind if I just switch off Find my iPhone and reset the phone for you first?"