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There are plenty of things worth discussing that aren't falsifiable. There's also plenty of actual data related to those unfalsifiable anecdotes. Individual in

by natrius 11y ago

There are plenty of things worth discussing that aren't falsifiable. There's also plenty of actual data related to those unfalsifiable anecdotes. Individual instances of biased decision-making are impossible to prove, but that doesn't mean we should stop bringing up the possibility. I'm sure you check yourself against common biases when you think they might be relevant. Prejudice is a common bias, and we should keep talking about it.

belorn 11y ago
We should keep talking about it, but there isn't much of an point when the discussion is limited to fit existing biases. A while back I read a study that found that work culture inside a company is primarily made from gender culture if a single gender become dominant. The minority gender, be that male or female, then has to choose between assimilate or leave. Both men and women tend to chose the later option, which result in profession becoming more homogenic in regards to gender. Only work in professional environments where there is a fairly equal amount of both genders do unique work cultures become dominant. But that model does not fit common biases. It models both women and men as pushing each other out and discriminate against each other. As such, we don't see such models being discussed, and we don't talk about it. The only model that fits in our existing biases is men as the eternal aggressor and women as the eternal victim, and there isn't much worth to discuss within that limited space that hasn't been discussed to death already.
- natrius 11y ago
  This seems to be a case of the "all lives matter" fallacy. It's true that the men-bad-women-good bias is harmful. It just doesn't strike me as worth spending much effort on compared to the biases that are making our industry significantly harder for people to succeed in. I'll start paying attention to other issues when I can't remember the last time I worked on a ten person, single gender team of engineers.
  - belorn 11y ago
    Which results in the predictable model where the underlaying causes are ignored, the problem remains, and thus: There is common biases, but we should not keep talking about it if we aren't willing to fix our biases. If you don't want 10 person teams with the same gender, ask yourself this: why has those men being pushed to work there and excluded elsewhere? Why are women being excluded to work there and pushed elsewhere? The Swedish institution of education made a report that noted that as gender roles are being made more equal, work titles has gotten more gendered in the process. The correlation seem to imply that men and women project gender roles onto work as an reaction to having their gender roles being made less distinct in home and society at large. The same report also noted than in 15 years of efforts to get women to take up more male typical classes like engineering, only very minor progress has been made. No efforts (their exact wording) has been made to make men go to areas dominated by women, and the report predict that no major change in gender equality in education is going to occur until both genders starts to compete to get into classes dominated by the other gender. You need to pressure both side at the same time in order for gender lines to break. But again, people aren't really interested to talk about this since it doesn't match current biases. It easier to just assume that men are evil, women victims, and try to fix problems under those assumptions. Next time you say that "There are plenty of things worth discussing", here was a explanation why there won't be a worthwhile discussion.
    - nickonline 11y ago
      Do you know what that report is called?
      - belorn 11y ago
        I bookmarked it, and I can post it tomorrow when I get back to that computer.
        belorn 11y ago
        https://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/files/95/6180.pdf https://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/files/95/618... I can strongly recommend page 33 if you don't have time to read the whole thing. If you do have time however, it's references are as significant as the report itself. I also strongly recommend reading some anecdotal stories from people that are minority in professions where the gender inequality is 90%:10% and over.
- Wildgoose 11y ago
  In one of the places I have worked the majority of the programming staff were female. They said it had happened because women tended to stay whereas the men moved on. Interestingly, this then led them to actively recruit women because their experience was that they would keep them longer. It's also interesting to note that the women could be very clannish leaving us males as isolated individuals.

by natrius 11y ago

belorn 11y ago

We should keep talking about it, but there isn't much of an point when the discussion is limited to fit existing biases. A while back I read a study that found that work culture inside a company is primarily made from gender culture if a single gender become dominant. The minority gender, be that male or female, then has to choose between assimilate or leave. Both men and women tend to chose the later option, which result in profession becoming more homogenic in regards to gender. Only work in professional environments where there is a fairly equal amount of both genders do unique work cultures become dominant. But that model does not fit common biases. It models both women and men as pushing each other out and discriminate against each other. As such, we don't see such models being discussed, and we don't talk about it. The only model that fits in our existing biases is men as the eternal aggressor and women as the eternal victim, and there isn't much worth to discuss within that limited space that hasn't been discussed to death already.

natrius 11y ago
This seems to be a case of the "all lives matter" fallacy. It's true that the men-bad-women-good bias is harmful. It just doesn't strike me as worth spending much effort on compared to the biases that are making our industry significantly harder for people to succeed in. I'll start paying attention to other issues when I can't remember the last time I worked on a ten person, single gender team of engineers.
- belorn 11y ago
  Which results in the predictable model where the underlaying causes are ignored, the problem remains, and thus: There is common biases, but we should not keep talking about it if we aren't willing to fix our biases. If you don't want 10 person teams with the same gender, ask yourself this: why has those men being pushed to work there and excluded elsewhere? Why are women being excluded to work there and pushed elsewhere? The Swedish institution of education made a report that noted that as gender roles are being made more equal, work titles has gotten more gendered in the process. The correlation seem to imply that men and women project gender roles onto work as an reaction to having their gender roles being made less distinct in home and society at large. The same report also noted than in 15 years of efforts to get women to take up more male typical classes like engineering, only very minor progress has been made. No efforts (their exact wording) has been made to make men go to areas dominated by women, and the report predict that no major change in gender equality in education is going to occur until both genders starts to compete to get into classes dominated by the other gender. You need to pressure both side at the same time in order for gender lines to break. But again, people aren't really interested to talk about this since it doesn't match current biases. It easier to just assume that men are evil, women victims, and try to fix problems under those assumptions. Next time you say that "There are plenty of things worth discussing", here was a explanation why there won't be a worthwhile discussion.
  - nickonline 11y ago
    Do you know what that report is called?
    - belorn 11y ago
      I bookmarked it, and I can post it tomorrow when I get back to that computer.
      - belorn 11y ago
        https://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/files/95/6180.pdf https://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/files/95/618... I can strongly recommend page 33 if you don't have time to read the whole thing. If you do have time however, it's references are as significant as the report itself. I also strongly recommend reading some anecdotal stories from people that are minority in professions where the gender inequality is 90%:10% and over.
Wildgoose 11y ago
In one of the places I have worked the majority of the programming staff were female. They said it had happened because women tended to stay whereas the men moved on. Interestingly, this then led them to actively recruit women because their experience was that they would keep them longer. It's also interesting to note that the women could be very clannish leaving us males as isolated individuals.