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> Mixers A PC name for money launderers. If you need a money launderer, you should rethink what you're doing.

AgentME 11y ago
They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. They can be used to get any privacy from the general public. All bitcoin transactions are publicly broadcast to everyone. Do you use a shower curtain specifically for hiding from the government?
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. Sure, like torrents aren't necessarily about ip theft.
miscellaneous 11y ago
Noun, 1. money laundering: Concealing the source of illegally gotten money. Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? And why would I require that? I haven't accused all bitcoin users of anything. > This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions. The law thinks financial privacy is a crime, thus KYC laws, and as such it's on topic for any discussion of bitcoin privacy since said discussion should include the issue that you fix social problems with engineering. You can't break the law "because the protocol just works that way".
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    You accused them of money laundering, which is a crime by itself most first world nations. Except that phrase doesn't apply unless another crime has been committed, because it only applies to funds gotten illegally. Make more sense?
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      Anonymous financial transactions are themselves crimes, they violate KYC laws.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        What KYC laws? If I'm running some random business selling widgets, I'm under no obligation to do any such thing.
        gnaritas 11y ago
        KYC laws apply to financial businesses, like those whose sole servers is the transfer of money, i.e. bitcoins. Exchanges for example must comply with KYC laws. Money laundering, aka mixing, is itself a purely financial service. There are no mixing services that are on steady legal ground; they are proving a service that expressly allows one to launder money as such they will always be a target for authorities.
      - j15t 11y ago
        KYC = Know Your Customer As the name implies, this law only applies to (financial) businesses and their customers. Most Bitcoin transactions are P2P and hence there is no business/customer relationship and hence there is no KYC law applicable.
        gnaritas 11y ago
        > Most Bitcoin transactions are P2P and hence there is no business/customer relationship and hence there is no KYC law applicable. That's a bit of a nonsense statement. It's a P2P payment network so you have no way of knowing if most of the transactions going across it are between businesses and customers or person to person. Quite simply that's a claim you can't back up.
- Kiro 11y ago
  Doesn't financial privacy mean tax evasion by default?
  - j15t 11y ago
    If you think it does, then I assume you also want to ban cash? By the way, that is a valid opinion to have - it's just that not everyone agrees that it optimal in the long run for all personal information to be auditable by a government in real time.
    - Kiro 11y ago
      Well, I live in a country where cash is very uncommon. I can't even remember the last time I saw cash in real life so banning it wouldn't make much difference for me personally.
ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? Sure, your bank would probably want to inquire about the source of the cash if you were to bring a briefcase of cash to the branch for a deposit. But that would be private information sharing "channel" between you and your bank - both the source of your funds and the fact that you have them in your account is reasonably private compared to a wide open ledger sitting out there with all of the txs from day one.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, so no.
  - j15t 11y ago
    You did say that because you said that using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. On the Bitcoin network all transactions are public and can be linked to an individual. Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public.
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      No I didn't say that because... > Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? and > using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. Are not equivalent statements. > Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public. Not true since you've forgotten the other option available to me; I don't have to use Bitcoin; you've presented a false dichotomy. I can simply choose not to use Bitcoin, consider mixing money laundering (that is after all its express intent, hiding the source of money), and still keep my financial transactions non public as they are today.
  - ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
    well so then you get the point that not willing to share your tx info with "the world" (which is what the mixers are for) != money laundering

They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. They can be used to get any privacy from the general public. All bitcoin transactions are publicly broadcast to everyone. Do you use a shower curtain specifically for hiding from the government?

gnaritas 11y ago
> They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. Sure, like torrents aren't necessarily about ip theft.

miscellaneous 11y ago

Noun, 1. money laundering: Concealing the source of illegally gotten money. Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions.

gnaritas 11y ago
> Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? And why would I require that? I haven't accused all bitcoin users of anything. > This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions. The law thinks financial privacy is a crime, thus KYC laws, and as such it's on topic for any discussion of bitcoin privacy since said discussion should include the issue that you fix social problems with engineering. You can't break the law "because the protocol just works that way".
- Karunamon 11y ago
  You accused them of money laundering, which is a crime by itself most first world nations. Except that phrase doesn't apply unless another crime has been committed, because it only applies to funds gotten illegally. Make more sense?
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    Anonymous financial transactions are themselves crimes, they violate KYC laws.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      What KYC laws? If I'm running some random business selling widgets, I'm under no obligation to do any such thing.
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        KYC laws apply to financial businesses, like those whose sole servers is the transfer of money, i.e. bitcoins. Exchanges for example must comply with KYC laws. Money laundering, aka mixing, is itself a purely financial service. There are no mixing services that are on steady legal ground; they are proving a service that expressly allows one to launder money as such they will always be a target for authorities.
    - j15t 11y ago
      KYC = Know Your Customer As the name implies, this law only applies to (financial) businesses and their customers. Most Bitcoin transactions are P2P and hence there is no business/customer relationship and hence there is no KYC law applicable.
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        > Most Bitcoin transactions are P2P and hence there is no business/customer relationship and hence there is no KYC law applicable. That's a bit of a nonsense statement. It's a P2P payment network so you have no way of knowing if most of the transactions going across it are between businesses and customers or person to person. Quite simply that's a claim you can't back up.
Kiro 11y ago
Doesn't financial privacy mean tax evasion by default?
- j15t 11y ago
  If you think it does, then I assume you also want to ban cash? By the way, that is a valid opinion to have - it's just that not everyone agrees that it optimal in the long run for all personal information to be auditable by a government in real time.
  - Kiro 11y ago
    Well, I live in a country where cash is very uncommon. I can't even remember the last time I saw cash in real life so banning it wouldn't make much difference for me personally.

ChemicalWarfare 11y ago

Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? Sure, your bank would probably want to inquire about the source of the cash if you were to bring a briefcase of cash to the branch for a deposit. But that would be private information sharing "channel" between you and your bank - both the source of your funds and the fact that you have them in your account is reasonably private compared to a wide open ledger sitting out there with all of the txs from day one.

gnaritas 11y ago
> Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, so no.
- j15t 11y ago
  You did say that because you said that using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. On the Bitcoin network all transactions are public and can be linked to an individual. Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    No I didn't say that because... > Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? and > using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. Are not equivalent statements. > Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public. Not true since you've forgotten the other option available to me; I don't have to use Bitcoin; you've presented a false dichotomy. I can simply choose not to use Bitcoin, consider mixing money laundering (that is after all its express intent, hiding the source of money), and still keep my financial transactions non public as they are today.
- ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
  well so then you get the point that not willing to share your tx info with "the world" (which is what the mixers are for) != money laundering