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I hope everybody here knows about BitcoinFog, Shared Send, and other mixers. And uses them for random transactions now and then to give the rest of us plausible

by Sinergy 11y ago

I hope everybody here knows about BitcoinFog, Shared Send, and other mixers. And uses them for random transactions now and then to give the rest of us plausible deniability.

Taek 11y ago
Most mixers introduce points of centralization, which allow a party to steal your coins or allow them to break privacy. JoinMarket is a good solution that works on Bitcoin today. Monero is a good altcoin which will automatically mix your coins using crypto. I believe it is more powerful than JM but requires using an altcoin. Zcash offers unmatched anonymity powered by fancy new crypto (less tested, less certainty on the security, but much more powerful). Still under development, but I'm guessing will be more ready in August.
- Sinergy 11y ago
  Assuming you are careless enough to use only one mixer for a transaction, they form points of centralization. Assuming no mixer reputation, they allow a party to steal your coins. Note that breaking a large transaction into small pieces allows you to determine a sort of short-term reputation while only risking one piece at a time. My standard first two steps used to be SharedCoin->BitcoinFog, for example.
gnaritas 11y ago
> Mixers A PC name for money launderers. If you need a money launderer, you should rethink what you're doing.
- AgentME 11y ago
  They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. They can be used to get any privacy from the general public. All bitcoin transactions are publicly broadcast to everyone. Do you use a shower curtain specifically for hiding from the government?
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    > They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. Sure, like torrents aren't necessarily about ip theft.
- miscellaneous 11y ago
  Noun, 1. money laundering: Concealing the source of illegally gotten money. Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    > Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? And why would I require that? I haven't accused all bitcoin users of anything. > This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions. The law thinks financial privacy is a crime, thus KYC laws, and as such it's on topic for any discussion of bitcoin privacy since said discussion should include the issue that you fix social problems with engineering. You can't break the law "because the protocol just works that way".
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      You accused them of money laundering, which is a crime by itself most first world nations. Except that phrase doesn't apply unless another crime has been committed, because it only applies to funds gotten illegally. Make more sense?
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        Anonymous financial transactions are themselves crimes, they violate KYC laws.
        Karunamon 11y ago
        What KYC laws? If I'm running some random business selling widgets, I'm under no obligation to do any such thing.
- ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
  Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? Sure, your bank would probably want to inquire about the source of the cash if you were to bring a briefcase of cash to the branch for a deposit. But that would be private information sharing "channel" between you and your bank - both the source of your funds and the fact that you have them in your account is reasonably private compared to a wide open ledger sitting out there with all of the txs from day one.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    > Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, so no.
    - j15t 11y ago
      You did say that because you said that using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. On the Bitcoin network all transactions are public and can be linked to an individual. Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public.
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        No I didn't say that because... > Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? and > using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. Are not equivalent statements. > Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public. Not true since you've forgotten the other option available to me; I don't have to use Bitcoin; you've presented a false dichotomy. I can simply choose not to use Bitcoin, consider mixing money laundering (that is after all its express intent, hiding the source of money), and still keep my financial transactions non public as they are today.
    - ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
      well so then you get the point that not willing to share your tx info with "the world" (which is what the mixers are for) != money laundering
RyanZAG 11y ago
Do you really believe money launderers will be able to stay afloat for long, even though they have fancy math? Governments will crack down on them as Bitcoin grows. People do the same thing with real money and go to jail.

by Sinergy 11y ago

I hope everybody here knows about BitcoinFog, Shared Send, and other mixers. And uses them for random transactions now and then to give the rest of us plausible deniability.

Taek 11y ago

Most mixers introduce points of centralization, which allow a party to steal your coins or allow them to break privacy. JoinMarket is a good solution that works on Bitcoin today. Monero is a good altcoin which will automatically mix your coins using crypto. I believe it is more powerful than JM but requires using an altcoin. Zcash offers unmatched anonymity powered by fancy new crypto (less tested, less certainty on the security, but much more powerful). Still under development, but I'm guessing will be more ready in August.

Sinergy 11y ago
Assuming you are careless enough to use only one mixer for a transaction, they form points of centralization. Assuming no mixer reputation, they allow a party to steal your coins. Note that breaking a large transaction into small pieces allows you to determine a sort of short-term reputation while only risking one piece at a time. My standard first two steps used to be SharedCoin->BitcoinFog, for example.

gnaritas 11y ago

> Mixers A PC name for money launderers. If you need a money launderer, you should rethink what you're doing.

AgentME 11y ago
They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. They can be used to get any privacy from the general public. All bitcoin transactions are publicly broadcast to everyone. Do you use a shower curtain specifically for hiding from the government?
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > They're not necessarily about hiding from the law. Sure, like torrents aren't necessarily about ip theft.
miscellaneous 11y ago
Noun, 1. money laundering: Concealing the source of illegally gotten money. Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > Do you have any evidence that suggests that all users of mixers obtained their Bitcoin illegally? And why would I require that? I haven't accused all bitcoin users of anything. > This HN post is a criticism of the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. Mixers can improve the privacy of Bitcoin transactions. I don't see how your comment adds to this discussion, unless you think financial privacy is a crime - in which case your statement applies equally to cash transactions. The law thinks financial privacy is a crime, thus KYC laws, and as such it's on topic for any discussion of bitcoin privacy since said discussion should include the issue that you fix social problems with engineering. You can't break the law "because the protocol just works that way".
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    You accused them of money laundering, which is a crime by itself most first world nations. Except that phrase doesn't apply unless another crime has been committed, because it only applies to funds gotten illegally. Make more sense?
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      Anonymous financial transactions are themselves crimes, they violate KYC laws.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        What KYC laws? If I'm running some random business selling widgets, I'm under no obligation to do any such thing.
ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? Sure, your bank would probably want to inquire about the source of the cash if you were to bring a briefcase of cash to the branch for a deposit. But that would be private information sharing "channel" between you and your bank - both the source of your funds and the fact that you have them in your account is reasonably private compared to a wide open ledger sitting out there with all of the txs from day one.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, so no.
  - j15t 11y ago
    You did say that because you said that using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. On the Bitcoin network all transactions are public and can be linked to an individual. Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public.
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      No I didn't say that because... > Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? and > using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. Are not equivalent statements. > Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public. Not true since you've forgotten the other option available to me; I don't have to use Bitcoin; you've presented a false dichotomy. I can simply choose not to use Bitcoin, consider mixing money laundering (that is after all its express intent, hiding the source of money), and still keep my financial transactions non public as they are today.
  - ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
    well so then you get the point that not willing to share your tx info with "the world" (which is what the mixers are for) != money laundering

RyanZAG 11y ago

Do you really believe money launderers will be able to stay afloat for long, even though they have fancy math? Governments will crack down on them as Bitcoin grows. People do the same thing with real money and go to jail.