4 ms·

For some background, I'm a car nut and a longtime software engineer, and I love to tinker with my cars. Cars are getting increasingly more difficult to work on

For some background, I'm a car nut and a longtime software engineer, and I love to tinker with my cars. Cars are getting increasingly more difficult to work on yourself, regardless of manufacturer. Early, purely mechanical cars were easy to work with, there was no magic, everything which made the car work was removable, tweakable. Then came fuel injection. It was a mish-mash of incompatible technologies and everyone doing their own proprietary thing. The gov't mandated the OBD and OBD-II standards into cars to allow independent servicing of the car, primarily for emissions reasons. For a while, things were simple again, since you could do basic interfacing with the cars yourself, clear codes, etc. The actual ECU maps weren't readily available, but easy enough to reverse engineer since you could memory dump the ECU through an exposed connector or even through the OBD-II port. Then came air bags and auxiliary safety systems. These were locked down and not subject to OBD rules. To reset the air bag light after fixing a bad connection requires dealer-specific tools, an independent can't do it without acquiring these tools, which are usually prohibitively expensive, or simply not available. Today, ECU's are encrypted, impenetrable, and export the legally required minimum OBD-II spec, and that's it. You usually have to take it to the dealer for any proprietary codes. As for tuning A/F maps, forget about it. Some cars have huge enthusiast communities, so some ECU's get cracked, or you replace the ECU with a completely open one, but then sacrifice lots of the vehicle's features. It's getting more difficult to be a weekend garage mechanic. Brakes and suspensions are still easy, but the engine is becoming impenetrable. A recent BMW, in which all I did was replace a dead battery, required a trip to the dealer to "accept" this new battery. The battery monitoring system threw a code which an independent can't clear.

walrus01 11y ago
and this is why certain 4x4 enthusiasts enjoy driving 25 year old diesel vehicles.
- seany 11y ago
  I'm looking for a pre 98 dodge exactly for these reasons.
- dsfyu404ed 11y ago
  Only the hipsters and the luddites seek those out. They're too overprices for something you'll intentionally drive into a tree at some point. Most 4x4 enthusiasts are using pre-OBD2 and 1st gen OBD2 vehicles since they're cheap and plentiful.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    I like my old 12 valve Cummins because it has power, and gets 24 MPG on the highway.
    - dsfyu404ed 11y ago
      24mpg at what speed in what conditions? Low speed in the plains states, the kind of speed that nobody actually drives at, I can believe that. We all know how aerodynamics work (I'm betting you drive a 2nd gen)... We both know a stock 12v is grossly under-powered by early-mid 2000s standards. And if you've got a close to stock (nobody gets 24mpg with 35s and a lift) 12v powered vehicle that isn't a completely clapped out POS or very, very rusty you're probably not wheeling it much if at all... Was I close?
      - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        Driving the speed limit, on the highway. If you ever hear the turbo, back out of it. IP timing was tweaked just a bit, but other than that it is a bone stock 1996 Dodge 3500. And, yeah, it's a clapped out just rolled 300,000 mile truck.
- userbinator 11y ago
  I'm not into 4x4s at all but I like pure mechanical diesels for their simplicity and overall robustness (and distinctive sound, especially the 2-stroke variety) - no electrics or electronics at all, so completely immune to EMP, and doesn't generate any electrical noise on its own either. On the other hand, the emissions aren't great but I suppose they could be tuned to minimise that; it's just that most diesel enthusiasts are tuning for power (and smoke) instead.
Svip 11y ago
The US OBD/OBD-II standards came about in 1990s, when fuel injection was already a several decades old technology. Although, truthfully, it first became common around the 1980s. Still, I am happy my 1974 Citroën DS 23 has fuel injection. Even if it means some extra difficulty getting to the cylinders and to the engine itself. But you are right, I am usually advised not to tinker with the fuel injection itself. Then again, on this model, people's experience is that there is usually no problem with the fuel injection anyway. And I have had no problems with it so far.
- disposeofnick9 11y ago
  I have a 1985 VW Westfalia (Digijet - pre-computer, pre-ODB, direct port injection), and it's a Donald Drumpf PITA to tune. The '86 Digifant is even worse, having a full, new ECU and mixed parts of the '85 control system. Everything else though is really simple with the service manual. One neat feature though is that many VW/Audi engines have a hall effect sensor built into the engine block for precise timing using a Grundig VAG 1367 which the dealer used... but it's also easy enough these days to just make your own timing system with a BeagleBoard or Arduino because the 3 pin port is a very simple circuit documented in the service manual. The only engine mod I'm planning on doing is bypass the useless auxilliary air valve, which does not advance timing or fast idle when cold.. and do that with the engine and additional ambient air sensor to vary the fast-idle vacuum passage... it stalls when cold and no VW "expert" shop can be trusted to fix it without ruining something else. Fixing it yourself when you know exactly what is wrong is better than relying on someone else motivated to go as slow and as expensive as possible with an unknown outcome.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > Still, I am happy my 1974 Citroën DS 23 has fuel injection. The most beautiful car ever made. I had the pleasure of driving two of these for years, still miss them 20 years later. Enjoy your ride!
Unklejoe 11y ago
Spot on. Many manufacturers use extended OBD (UDS protocol) commands to handle specific tasks. Sometimes the DIDs (requestable variables) get "discovered" by reverse engineering the dealership's software (or other third party vehicle specific diagnostic software). Most cars after 2008 use CANbus for the OBD port, so you can perform tasks and observe the messages using a cheap microcontroller+CANbus controller. Also, I don't know if you work on BMWs often, but I just wanted to add that you can clear/reset the battery subsystem on a modern BMW/Mini using a $20 K/D-CAN cable from eBay and illegally obtained BMW INPA software. You can use INPA to perform many tasks. Rain sensor recalibration, battery recalibration, ABS bleed procedure, transmission adaptation reset, etc... Either way, this is well beyond the ability of the average mechanic, which is why this issue is important. My father runs a body shop and he constantly has to call the "computer guy" to reset airbag lights. Some cars even require a reset procedure when headlights are changed...it's crazy. The only good thing is that since so many cars use CANbus everywhere, it's pretty hackable if you want to spend the time to figure out the message IDs and encoding.
- devy 11y ago
  Agree with Unklejoe but disagree with oppositelock that CANbus make modern cars MORE HACKABLE [0] rather than "more difficult" to work on. I am not even sure if it's true for the mechanical part but definitely not the electronics and computerized components, ECU included. Charlie Miller, a famous InfoSec expert who previous known for hacking iPhone was able to take complete control of a JEEP remotely [1]. I doubt that's possible for the older JEEPs without ECUs and cellular connectivity. And this is just a start, not only for JEEP but a lot of other cars too[3]. With EVs are gradually coming into mainstream, soon average consumers might be able to "fix" their EVs whereas they can't for the previous internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles without even getting their hands dirty[4]. [0]: http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-your-vehicle-CAN-BUS-with-Arduino-and-Seeed-C/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-your-vehicle-CAN-BUS-wi... [1]: http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/ http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-high... [2]: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/24/nissan-car-hacked http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/24/nissan-car-ha... [3]: http://www.canbushack.com/blog/index.php http://www.canbushack.com/blog/index.php [4]: http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/11/coding-tutorial-bmw-i3-electric-car/ http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/11/coding-tutorial-bmw-i3-ele...
bliti 11y ago
Not long ago I had to take a friend's ferrari 599 to get the ecu reset and adjusted for the tune of $16k. I had changed the both MAF sensors and adjusted the clutch on the transmission. Fucking nuts.
ryandrake 11y ago
What can ordinary people do (besides call their favorite politician, LOL)? "Only buy cars built before the 80s" is going to be less and less a viable option over time. Is there even a single auto manufacturer building repairable cars anymore?
- zanny 11y ago
  This is the same question I ask every time I'm shopping for a new computer, where is my open firmware mainboard / CPU / no proprietary microcode / open source hard drive firmware / etc computer so I can actually inspect, improve, and trust the pieces I rely on every day for my work. The Raptor Talos Workstation is the closest thing we have to a enthusiast car without wholly proprietary internals, which is just incredibly bad.
- cowsandmilk 11y ago
  Note, the Massachusetts Right to Repair came from a ballot measure, so it didn't require calling a politician and passed with huge support from the general public (86% Yes). If your state has this option[1], you can bring ballots forward on this topic and it should be possible to get signatures and they are extremely likely to pass. (I originally said easy to get signatures, but getting 365,880 signatures, as is currently required in California, would not be easy, but should be possible if you are a good organizer.) [1] https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_Measures_overview https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_Measures_overview
  - OliverJones 11y ago
    This was actually passed using a common Massachusetts strategy to force the hands of the members of the Great and General Court (the legislature). You run a petition campaign to get a good, but draconian, measure on the ballot. You do this carefully, and gather a solid margin of extra signatures. When you're about 50% there, you schedule a demonstration at the State House. If you can turn out 200-300 people at the State House, it's good. You do a little "What do we want? Open Systems. When do we want them? Now!" chanting, and you talk to the press. You then get people to talk to their reps and state senators, and ask for THEIR signatures (as voters) on the initiative. If they oppose it, they have to look a constituent in the eye and say "no." Then you finish the signature drive, in plenty of time to get the signatures certified by the town clerks. Then, the legislature should be primed to pass good legislation to head off the good ballot bill. In this case (right to repair) the ballot bill passed anyway, because the legislature was distracted (the Speaker was being prosecuted for corruption). That's how we got the law commonly and wrongly known as Romneycare passed. In that case, the legislature did their jobs when forced. It's NEVER a bad thing to have your state senator know who you are.
thirdsun 11y ago
Tell me about it - VW wants me to bring my car to the dealership in order to receive a software update for the infotainment system (media player, bluetooth- and iOS-connectivity, radio and so on). Apparently it's a simple flash via SD card and I can't see why I couldn't do this myself.
- Grishnakh 11y ago
  My Mazda is the same way (except it's flashed from a USB stick). I didn't bother; there's people posting these firmware files on the internet, so you can download it and do it yourself. Why should I take a few hours out of my day to drive to a dealership to do this when I can do it myself in 15 minutes in my garage?
golergka 11y ago
> The gov't mandated the OBD and OBD-II standards into cars to allow independent servicing of the car So, seems like these work, and the way to solve it is to force standard compliance through them.
ConfuciusSay02 11y ago
Which make/model of new car(s) would you say is the least locked down, or easiest to repair?

walrus01 11y ago

and this is why certain 4x4 enthusiasts enjoy driving 25 year old diesel vehicles.

seany 11y ago
I'm looking for a pre 98 dodge exactly for these reasons.
dsfyu404ed 11y ago
Only the hipsters and the luddites seek those out. They're too overprices for something you'll intentionally drive into a tree at some point. Most 4x4 enthusiasts are using pre-OBD2 and 1st gen OBD2 vehicles since they're cheap and plentiful.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  I like my old 12 valve Cummins because it has power, and gets 24 MPG on the highway.
  - dsfyu404ed 11y ago
    24mpg at what speed in what conditions? Low speed in the plains states, the kind of speed that nobody actually drives at, I can believe that. We all know how aerodynamics work (I'm betting you drive a 2nd gen)... We both know a stock 12v is grossly under-powered by early-mid 2000s standards. And if you've got a close to stock (nobody gets 24mpg with 35s and a lift) 12v powered vehicle that isn't a completely clapped out POS or very, very rusty you're probably not wheeling it much if at all... Was I close?
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      Driving the speed limit, on the highway. If you ever hear the turbo, back out of it. IP timing was tweaked just a bit, but other than that it is a bone stock 1996 Dodge 3500. And, yeah, it's a clapped out just rolled 300,000 mile truck.
userbinator 11y ago
I'm not into 4x4s at all but I like pure mechanical diesels for their simplicity and overall robustness (and distinctive sound, especially the 2-stroke variety) - no electrics or electronics at all, so completely immune to EMP, and doesn't generate any electrical noise on its own either. On the other hand, the emissions aren't great but I suppose they could be tuned to minimise that; it's just that most diesel enthusiasts are tuning for power (and smoke) instead.

Svip 11y ago

The US OBD/OBD-II standards came about in 1990s, when fuel injection was already a several decades old technology. Although, truthfully, it first became common around the 1980s. Still, I am happy my 1974 Citroën DS 23 has fuel injection. Even if it means some extra difficulty getting to the cylinders and to the engine itself. But you are right, I am usually advised not to tinker with the fuel injection itself. Then again, on this model, people's experience is that there is usually no problem with the fuel injection anyway. And I have had no problems with it so far.

disposeofnick9 11y ago
I have a 1985 VW Westfalia (Digijet - pre-computer, pre-ODB, direct port injection), and it's a Donald Drumpf PITA to tune. The '86 Digifant is even worse, having a full, new ECU and mixed parts of the '85 control system. Everything else though is really simple with the service manual. One neat feature though is that many VW/Audi engines have a hall effect sensor built into the engine block for precise timing using a Grundig VAG 1367 which the dealer used... but it's also easy enough these days to just make your own timing system with a BeagleBoard or Arduino because the 3 pin port is a very simple circuit documented in the service manual. The only engine mod I'm planning on doing is bypass the useless auxilliary air valve, which does not advance timing or fast idle when cold.. and do that with the engine and additional ambient air sensor to vary the fast-idle vacuum passage... it stalls when cold and no VW "expert" shop can be trusted to fix it without ruining something else. Fixing it yourself when you know exactly what is wrong is better than relying on someone else motivated to go as slow and as expensive as possible with an unknown outcome.
jacquesm 11y ago
> Still, I am happy my 1974 Citroën DS 23 has fuel injection. The most beautiful car ever made. I had the pleasure of driving two of these for years, still miss them 20 years later. Enjoy your ride!

Unklejoe 11y ago

Spot on. Many manufacturers use extended OBD (UDS protocol) commands to handle specific tasks. Sometimes the DIDs (requestable variables) get "discovered" by reverse engineering the dealership's software (or other third party vehicle specific diagnostic software). Most cars after 2008 use CANbus for the OBD port, so you can perform tasks and observe the messages using a cheap microcontroller+CANbus controller. Also, I don't know if you work on BMWs often, but I just wanted to add that you can clear/reset the battery subsystem on a modern BMW/Mini using a $20 K/D-CAN cable from eBay and illegally obtained BMW INPA software. You can use INPA to perform many tasks. Rain sensor recalibration, battery recalibration, ABS bleed procedure, transmission adaptation reset, etc... Either way, this is well beyond the ability of the average mechanic, which is why this issue is important. My father runs a body shop and he constantly has to call the "computer guy" to reset airbag lights. Some cars even require a reset procedure when headlights are changed...it's crazy. The only good thing is that since so many cars use CANbus everywhere, it's pretty hackable if you want to spend the time to figure out the message IDs and encoding.

devy 11y ago
Agree with Unklejoe but disagree with oppositelock that CANbus make modern cars MORE HACKABLE [0] rather than "more difficult" to work on. I am not even sure if it's true for the mechanical part but definitely not the electronics and computerized components, ECU included. Charlie Miller, a famous InfoSec expert who previous known for hacking iPhone was able to take complete control of a JEEP remotely [1]. I doubt that's possible for the older JEEPs without ECUs and cellular connectivity. And this is just a start, not only for JEEP but a lot of other cars too[3]. With EVs are gradually coming into mainstream, soon average consumers might be able to "fix" their EVs whereas they can't for the previous internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles without even getting their hands dirty[4]. [0]: http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-your-vehicle-CAN-BUS-with-Arduino-and-Seeed-C/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-your-vehicle-CAN-BUS-wi... [1]: http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/ http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-high... [2]: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/24/nissan-car-hacked http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/24/nissan-car-ha... [3]: http://www.canbushack.com/blog/index.php http://www.canbushack.com/blog/index.php [4]: http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/11/coding-tutorial-bmw-i3-electric-car/ http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/11/coding-tutorial-bmw-i3-ele...

bliti 11y ago

Not long ago I had to take a friend's ferrari 599 to get the ecu reset and adjusted for the tune of $16k. I had changed the both MAF sensors and adjusted the clutch on the transmission. Fucking nuts.

ryandrake 11y ago

What can ordinary people do (besides call their favorite politician, LOL)? "Only buy cars built before the 80s" is going to be less and less a viable option over time. Is there even a single auto manufacturer building repairable cars anymore?

zanny 11y ago
This is the same question I ask every time I'm shopping for a new computer, where is my open firmware mainboard / CPU / no proprietary microcode / open source hard drive firmware / etc computer so I can actually inspect, improve, and trust the pieces I rely on every day for my work. The Raptor Talos Workstation is the closest thing we have to a enthusiast car without wholly proprietary internals, which is just incredibly bad.
cowsandmilk 11y ago
Note, the Massachusetts Right to Repair came from a ballot measure, so it didn't require calling a politician and passed with huge support from the general public (86% Yes). If your state has this option[1], you can bring ballots forward on this topic and it should be possible to get signatures and they are extremely likely to pass. (I originally said easy to get signatures, but getting 365,880 signatures, as is currently required in California, would not be easy, but should be possible if you are a good organizer.) [1] https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_Measures_overview https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_Measures_overview
- OliverJones 11y ago
  This was actually passed using a common Massachusetts strategy to force the hands of the members of the Great and General Court (the legislature). You run a petition campaign to get a good, but draconian, measure on the ballot. You do this carefully, and gather a solid margin of extra signatures. When you're about 50% there, you schedule a demonstration at the State House. If you can turn out 200-300 people at the State House, it's good. You do a little "What do we want? Open Systems. When do we want them? Now!" chanting, and you talk to the press. You then get people to talk to their reps and state senators, and ask for THEIR signatures (as voters) on the initiative. If they oppose it, they have to look a constituent in the eye and say "no." Then you finish the signature drive, in plenty of time to get the signatures certified by the town clerks. Then, the legislature should be primed to pass good legislation to head off the good ballot bill. In this case (right to repair) the ballot bill passed anyway, because the legislature was distracted (the Speaker was being prosecuted for corruption). That's how we got the law commonly and wrongly known as Romneycare passed. In that case, the legislature did their jobs when forced. It's NEVER a bad thing to have your state senator know who you are.

thirdsun 11y ago

Tell me about it - VW wants me to bring my car to the dealership in order to receive a software update for the infotainment system (media player, bluetooth- and iOS-connectivity, radio and so on). Apparently it's a simple flash via SD card and I can't see why I couldn't do this myself.

Grishnakh 11y ago
My Mazda is the same way (except it's flashed from a USB stick). I didn't bother; there's people posting these firmware files on the internet, so you can download it and do it yourself. Why should I take a few hours out of my day to drive to a dealership to do this when I can do it myself in 15 minutes in my garage?

golergka 11y ago

> The gov't mandated the OBD and OBD-II standards into cars to allow independent servicing of the car So, seems like these work, and the way to solve it is to force standard compliance through them.

ConfuciusSay02 11y ago

Which make/model of new car(s) would you say is the least locked down, or easiest to repair?