3 ms·

> Saddam was cruel to his people So, let's bomb the shit out of those people and kill more of them. And everyone else should chip in as well.

civilian 11y ago
Don't strawman me, give me a steelman.
- imron 11y ago
  Sure. It's not about rulers being cruel. A ruler being cruel to his people doesn't give another foreign power the right to come in and depose that leader by force. An egalitarian anyone would support that concept. In any case, the Iraq invasion wasn't because Saddam was cruel - although that's definitely the ret-conned justification given that all the other reasons for the invasion turned out to be invalid. And if being cruel to your people is the yardstick by which you choose to invade other countries, how come the US isn't invading North Korea? Oh that's right, because they don't have oil, there's no family vendetta between the leaders of those countries, there's no visceral national tragedy recently that would allow the government to ride on the back of it and go to war on flimsy pretenses, and lastly because a war with North Korea would most likely draw in China, and that's a sleeping dragon the US would rather let lie. The semblance of democracy in Iraq has come at the cost of over a hundred thousand lives. I'm not sure how many Iraqis feel they are better off.
  - DasIch 11y ago
    You're ignoring that R2P[1] exists. It's far too rarely acted upon but that's international politics. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect
    - hoppa_liza 11y ago
      Call me naive, but I always put human lives as a first key to judging the success of any such "operation". Death, torture and general misery do not constitute a part of any solution. Specially when the solution is not a solution begin with.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      It does, but it is quite rare to see it executed without some hidden agenda. I can think of very few instances where this was done cleanly.
      - DasIch 11y ago
        The concept has been abused and will no doubt be continued to be abused. It's very important to fight against such abuse. Nevertheless I think that the fundamental idea behind it is a good one.

civilian 11y ago

Don't strawman me, give me a steelman.

imron 11y ago
Sure. It's not about rulers being cruel. A ruler being cruel to his people doesn't give another foreign power the right to come in and depose that leader by force. An egalitarian anyone would support that concept. In any case, the Iraq invasion wasn't because Saddam was cruel - although that's definitely the ret-conned justification given that all the other reasons for the invasion turned out to be invalid. And if being cruel to your people is the yardstick by which you choose to invade other countries, how come the US isn't invading North Korea? Oh that's right, because they don't have oil, there's no family vendetta between the leaders of those countries, there's no visceral national tragedy recently that would allow the government to ride on the back of it and go to war on flimsy pretenses, and lastly because a war with North Korea would most likely draw in China, and that's a sleeping dragon the US would rather let lie. The semblance of democracy in Iraq has come at the cost of over a hundred thousand lives. I'm not sure how many Iraqis feel they are better off.
- DasIch 11y ago
  You're ignoring that R2P[1] exists. It's far too rarely acted upon but that's international politics. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect
  - hoppa_liza 11y ago
    Call me naive, but I always put human lives as a first key to judging the success of any such "operation". Death, torture and general misery do not constitute a part of any solution. Specially when the solution is not a solution begin with.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    It does, but it is quite rare to see it executed without some hidden agenda. I can think of very few instances where this was done cleanly.
    - DasIch 11y ago
      The concept has been abused and will no doubt be continued to be abused. It's very important to fight against such abuse. Nevertheless I think that the fundamental idea behind it is a good one.