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I moved to Montreal last summer and spring, after years in Seattle and Berkeley. Then I gave up and moved back to Berkeley. Pros: + Bitcoin Embassy Montr

by toomim 11y ago

I moved to Montreal last summer and spring, after years in Seattle and Berkeley. Then I gave up and moved back to Berkeley. Pros: + Bitcoin Embassy Montreal! + Really cheap hipster life + Wonderful cheap food + Walkable city + A French culture that values living, parks, & community! + Beautiful women, and lots of them + There actually is a tech scene! Woah! + It's different Cons: - Less edgy culture. Less individual extreme boundary pushing. People move in largish herds of friends. - Racist against people who speak English. Language racism. - Corrupt government - McGill and Concordia are nowhere near as good as Berkeley and Stanford, and not even UW. Overall, it has a culture that supports working for a startup or doing tech contracting work, but it lacks that revolutionary west-coast culture that I like to live inside of to take a stab at doing something breakthrough. And language racism really sucks! On the upside, it's a great way for a white american male to experience being a discriminated minority.

JamilD 11y ago
I find this is a culture that pervades most of Canada (with perhaps the exception of Waterloo). It's a culture that follows, not leads and innovates. We're all for pretending to be like Silicon Valley… but not trying anything new :)
- toomim 11y ago
  Exactly! Like in Seattle: a culture of fitting in, rather than standing out.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- schwap 11y ago
  In the tech sector, I would agree. In other industries, however, I would strongly disagree.
  - JamilD 11y ago
    I'm just curious; which other industries?
    - schwap 11y ago
      Resource Extraction. For instance, just about every oil well drilled around the world likely has Canadian-developed equipment on it.
Raphmedia 11y ago
(quebecers here) Not language racism but english-phobia. Everyone that I know will switch to english to help people, but they expect that the reverse will be true too. You will be expected to at least attempt French. Attempting it will be enough and people will gladly help you out.
- cryptoz 11y ago
  I lived in Montreal for 6 six years, as a student and for my first job. I speak a bit of French, but not much. One day in Place Ville Marie I was getting a coffee at Starbucks. I accidentally bumped into someone in line, and I said "sorry". He snarled at me angrily and said "Get out of here, go back to Toronto". I don't think I had never been to Toronto at that point in my life. Mostly that does not happen. Mostly people are okay if you try to speak French. But if you slip up or bump the wrong person, your English can certainly make you the target of hateful and mean language. There is also a forced, legal "racism" against language, in that it can be prohibitively difficult to start a company in English. There is a systematic approach where the government and the locals will make your life more expensive, more complicated and less likely to succeed unless you do fully understand French. Edit: That said, I love Montreal. It's probably my favourite city in North America, I miss it tons and tons. I live in the Bay Area now, but feel like Montreal is my home and I can't wait to go back.
  - Raphmedia 11y ago
    > There is a systematic approach where the government and the locals will make your life more expensive, more complicated and less likely to succeed unless you do fully understand French. Sucks to say it so directly, but that's the point and people vote for exactly for that (people also vote against this, so don't put everyone in the same boat). There was abuse up to that point, so the laws are harsh now. In our history, there was a lot of oppression agaisnt french speaking people so people are still pretty afraid. The only contact that anyone over 80 years old had with english speaking people are from oppressive boss that abused them at work. I do agree on that point that the older population can be racist, but anyone under 30 should be more understanding. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec#Quiet_Revolution https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec#Quiet_Revolution
branchless 11y ago
been here 3 years and don't recognise your issues at all, I found it a friendly place. I'm sure they loved you thinking they move in herds and are sub-standard to US schools tho.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
chm 11y ago
I'm sorry you had to go through some bad experiences. However I think you're unfairly judging the city: Corrupt government: The fact that we talk about corruption does not mean its worse than elsewhere. Quality of higher education: Well, you've left out the whole of French speaking universities. And what does "good" mean? Just looking at budgets, you're not comparing on equal footing: Stanford ~5.5 bn USD, Concordia <400 mil CAD. Culture: Well, any way you look at it, you're comparing two very different environments. Historically extremely different, just take language as a factor, and you're also comparing arguably the most fertile region in the world in regards to computer science, with another region that has historically been deemed worth only of manual labor (pre 1960's). And the big one, language racism: I know literally no one who would qualify as a "language racist" in the same sense of "race racist", and I've lived here a quarter century. If you're coming to live in North America's biggest French speaking city, why are you surprised if people want to speak in French? Of course it's hard to learn, but I'd say Montreal is the best place to learn French for an English speaker, as you will not have trouble being understood anywhere. I mean, would you find it reasonable for me to learn English if I wanted to work and live in Berkeley? Some friends of mine are moving to Italy and they have to learn functional Italian to be allowed to move (per them). The language issue is the most annoying issue with foreigners or international students. Being in University so long I've had my share of discussions with such people, and a lot of the time the sentiment could be distilled to "I have many other things to do then learn French, maybe I'll do it when I have more free time, it's hard." To be fair, I've also met greatly motivated students who spared no expense to practice their new language. Just showing some interest/effort goes a long way...! Come back anytime :)
- ConfuciusSay02 11y ago
  In southern states some legislators have been trying to pass "speak English" laws for a long time. These laws seem to never get passed because they're deemed to be discriminatory. In Quebec however, those types of laws are here and being enforced. If you went to San Diego and told the guy with the Mexican food stand that he had to have English menus, you'd get called a racist. As someone who has lived in Montreal my entire life and is perfectly bilingual, I can tell you I've had many discriminatory experiences while speaking English. Not to mention it's very easy to test these things out when you are able to do certain things in both English vs French to compare experiences. If you speak in English you often get a different, and more negative experience. Given that I speak perfect French, it's very easy for me to simply ignore most of it, but don't kid yourself, it's still there. Just because there's a bad history doesn't excuse the current state of affairs. I also find, contrary to your experience, that it's those Anglophones who did not grow up here who tend to excuse the discriminatory laws and practices the most.
jordigh 11y ago
I find it a bit troubling that you list beautiful women as a plus of a city, as if women were a natural resource like trees or clean water. I also don't know what you mean about Montreal not being edgy enough. There's plenty of counterculture in Montreal. Did you ever spend a lot of time in Hochelaga? The language laws have a very good historical basis. Used to be that the bosses all spoke English and the employees all spoke French. That's the reason for the language laws, so that nobody in Montreal cannot access local jobs due to lack of French and that nobody is ever spoken down in English. Seeing how the linguistic majority is French, think of it more as affirmative action than racism. It's about levelling a historically unlevel playing field.
- futuravenir 11y ago
  >I find it a bit troubling that you list beautiful women as a plus of a city, as if women were a natural resource like trees or clean water. As a Montrealer, I would say that we have beautiful people living here in general. OP is likely heterocentric in their commentary. >Did you ever spend a lot of time in Hochelaga? Not much of a tech scene...but incredibly progressive/beautiful attitudes. Also, very French. If you don't have the language, you're missing 80% of it. I think a good bit of the incredibleness of Montreal is kept at arm's length through the language barrier. I grew up mostly with English friends and never spoke French. These days, I spend a lot more time with French friends and I feel much more at home.
  - jordigh 11y ago
    > I grew up mostly with English friends and never spoke French. These days, I spend a lot more time with French friends and I feel much more at home. I went through the same, actually. I "grew up" in the McGill bubble, but when my French got better, it's like a whole other city opened up to me.
- nxzero 11y ago
  >I find it a bit troubling that you list beautiful women as a plus of a city, as if women were a natural resource like trees or clean water. Seriously? It's like if I told a gay friend when they said they were thinking about moving to SF because (insert missing phrase) - that they were (insert missing phrase); who are you to say liking a type of people is wrong. Cities are different - and I assure you that some cities have more beautiful people than others.
euphemize 11y ago
So, you were in MTL for ~1 year? Working / studying?
__derek__ 11y ago
> language racism That's not racism. Stop calling it that. Piggy-backing on the plight of actual victims of racism isn't cool.

by toomim 11y ago

JamilD 11y ago

I find this is a culture that pervades most of Canada (with perhaps the exception of Waterloo). It's a culture that follows, not leads and innovates. We're all for pretending to be like Silicon Valley… but not trying anything new :)

toomim 11y ago
Exactly! Like in Seattle: a culture of fitting in, rather than standing out.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
schwap 11y ago
In the tech sector, I would agree. In other industries, however, I would strongly disagree.
- JamilD 11y ago
  I'm just curious; which other industries?
  - schwap 11y ago
    Resource Extraction. For instance, just about every oil well drilled around the world likely has Canadian-developed equipment on it.

Raphmedia 11y ago

(quebecers here) Not language racism but english-phobia. Everyone that I know will switch to english to help people, but they expect that the reverse will be true too. You will be expected to at least attempt French. Attempting it will be enough and people will gladly help you out.

cryptoz 11y ago
I lived in Montreal for 6 six years, as a student and for my first job. I speak a bit of French, but not much. One day in Place Ville Marie I was getting a coffee at Starbucks. I accidentally bumped into someone in line, and I said "sorry". He snarled at me angrily and said "Get out of here, go back to Toronto". I don't think I had never been to Toronto at that point in my life. Mostly that does not happen. Mostly people are okay if you try to speak French. But if you slip up or bump the wrong person, your English can certainly make you the target of hateful and mean language. There is also a forced, legal "racism" against language, in that it can be prohibitively difficult to start a company in English. There is a systematic approach where the government and the locals will make your life more expensive, more complicated and less likely to succeed unless you do fully understand French. Edit: That said, I love Montreal. It's probably my favourite city in North America, I miss it tons and tons. I live in the Bay Area now, but feel like Montreal is my home and I can't wait to go back.
- Raphmedia 11y ago
  > There is a systematic approach where the government and the locals will make your life more expensive, more complicated and less likely to succeed unless you do fully understand French. Sucks to say it so directly, but that's the point and people vote for exactly for that (people also vote against this, so don't put everyone in the same boat). There was abuse up to that point, so the laws are harsh now. In our history, there was a lot of oppression agaisnt french speaking people so people are still pretty afraid. The only contact that anyone over 80 years old had with english speaking people are from oppressive boss that abused them at work. I do agree on that point that the older population can be racist, but anyone under 30 should be more understanding. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec#Quiet_Revolution https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec#Quiet_Revolution

branchless 11y ago

been here 3 years and don't recognise your issues at all, I found it a friendly place. I'm sure they loved you thinking they move in herds and are sub-standard to US schools tho.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

chm 11y ago

I'm sorry you had to go through some bad experiences. However I think you're unfairly judging the city: Corrupt government: The fact that we talk about corruption does not mean its worse than elsewhere. Quality of higher education: Well, you've left out the whole of French speaking universities. And what does "good" mean? Just looking at budgets, you're not comparing on equal footing: Stanford ~5.5 bn USD, Concordia <400 mil CAD. Culture: Well, any way you look at it, you're comparing two very different environments. Historically extremely different, just take language as a factor, and you're also comparing arguably the most fertile region in the world in regards to computer science, with another region that has historically been deemed worth only of manual labor (pre 1960's). And the big one, language racism: I know literally no one who would qualify as a "language racist" in the same sense of "race racist", and I've lived here a quarter century. If you're coming to live in North America's biggest French speaking city, why are you surprised if people want to speak in French? Of course it's hard to learn, but I'd say Montreal is the best place to learn French for an English speaker, as you will not have trouble being understood anywhere. I mean, would you find it reasonable for me to learn English if I wanted to work and live in Berkeley? Some friends of mine are moving to Italy and they have to learn functional Italian to be allowed to move (per them). The language issue is the most annoying issue with foreigners or international students. Being in University so long I've had my share of discussions with such people, and a lot of the time the sentiment could be distilled to "I have many other things to do then learn French, maybe I'll do it when I have more free time, it's hard." To be fair, I've also met greatly motivated students who spared no expense to practice their new language. Just showing some interest/effort goes a long way...! Come back anytime :)

ConfuciusSay02 11y ago
In southern states some legislators have been trying to pass "speak English" laws for a long time. These laws seem to never get passed because they're deemed to be discriminatory. In Quebec however, those types of laws are here and being enforced. If you went to San Diego and told the guy with the Mexican food stand that he had to have English menus, you'd get called a racist. As someone who has lived in Montreal my entire life and is perfectly bilingual, I can tell you I've had many discriminatory experiences while speaking English. Not to mention it's very easy to test these things out when you are able to do certain things in both English vs French to compare experiences. If you speak in English you often get a different, and more negative experience. Given that I speak perfect French, it's very easy for me to simply ignore most of it, but don't kid yourself, it's still there. Just because there's a bad history doesn't excuse the current state of affairs. I also find, contrary to your experience, that it's those Anglophones who did not grow up here who tend to excuse the discriminatory laws and practices the most.

jordigh 11y ago

I find it a bit troubling that you list beautiful women as a plus of a city, as if women were a natural resource like trees or clean water. I also don't know what you mean about Montreal not being edgy enough. There's plenty of counterculture in Montreal. Did you ever spend a lot of time in Hochelaga? The language laws have a very good historical basis. Used to be that the bosses all spoke English and the employees all spoke French. That's the reason for the language laws, so that nobody in Montreal cannot access local jobs due to lack of French and that nobody is ever spoken down in English. Seeing how the linguistic majority is French, think of it more as affirmative action than racism. It's about levelling a historically unlevel playing field.

futuravenir 11y ago
>I find it a bit troubling that you list beautiful women as a plus of a city, as if women were a natural resource like trees or clean water. As a Montrealer, I would say that we have beautiful people living here in general. OP is likely heterocentric in their commentary. >Did you ever spend a lot of time in Hochelaga? Not much of a tech scene...but incredibly progressive/beautiful attitudes. Also, very French. If you don't have the language, you're missing 80% of it. I think a good bit of the incredibleness of Montreal is kept at arm's length through the language barrier. I grew up mostly with English friends and never spoke French. These days, I spend a lot more time with French friends and I feel much more at home.
- jordigh 11y ago
  > I grew up mostly with English friends and never spoke French. These days, I spend a lot more time with French friends and I feel much more at home. I went through the same, actually. I "grew up" in the McGill bubble, but when my French got better, it's like a whole other city opened up to me.
nxzero 11y ago
>I find it a bit troubling that you list beautiful women as a plus of a city, as if women were a natural resource like trees or clean water. Seriously? It's like if I told a gay friend when they said they were thinking about moving to SF because (insert missing phrase) - that they were (insert missing phrase); who are you to say liking a type of people is wrong. Cities are different - and I assure you that some cities have more beautiful people than others.

euphemize 11y ago

So, you were in MTL for ~1 year? Working / studying?

__derek__ 11y ago

> language racism That's not racism. Stop calling it that. Piggy-backing on the plight of actual victims of racism isn't cool.