5 ms·

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer. Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

NDizzle 11y ago
I'm really interested to see what happens to the price of a season pass to the community swimming pool if/when doubling the minimum wage goes through.
- VLM 11y ago
  Probably roughly nothing. I pulled my (small) suburban cities budget which is a many hundred page long PDF and parks and rec runs 40-something neighborhood city playground type parks and 2 pools on 2.3 million total per year. Of which staggeringly only 1.5 mil are wages (we live in a rough climate, maintenance costs are high, over $100K spend on electric bills alone, etc). On the revenue side the two public pools combined pulled in about 1/3 of a million from fees collected at the door. Its pretty cheap compared to commercial entertainment (movie, restaurant, etc), they could certainly charge more without excluding too many people, given how much it costs to live here. I know from experience that they have a couple kid lifeguards at each pool all the time so lets say 10 total staff at all instants (LOL no) at $15/hr for 10 or so hours per day (LOL no not open that much), open about 100 days a year (LOL no they'd be ice skating in the spring on the pool if that were the case), if I multiplied this out correctly in my head, at $15/hr, the kid lifeguards cost $150K/yr while bringing in $340K of revenue. Note that I don't have the misfortune of living in CA, so the actual cost of a seasons lifeguards at the two pools is more like $80K. The cities very gross profit margin if by a miracle pools were free to build and maintain, just revenue divided by kid labor, is roughly $340K/$80K right now and if the min wage were $15 it would "collapse" to $340K/$150K which still ain't bad. Honestly I suspect the pool spends more on chlorine and electricity than on the kids labor. The capital cost is no laughing matter. The most recent ADA compliant complete remodel was something like $2M which for that one pool is roughly a decades revenue. This quick analysis leads to the conclusion that open hours for the pool are insanely profitable, and the "pool biz" is overall dominated by capital costs. The kids pay is irrelevant.
  - justinhj 11y ago
    I don't expect public pools to be profitable anyway since they are subsidized by city taxes
rskar 11y ago
Per http://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/wages http://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/wages: The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires a minimum of not less than $4.25 per hour for employees under 20 years of age during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer. After 90 days of employment, or when the worker reaches age 20 (whichever comes first), the worker must receive the minimum wage. Employers are prohibited from taking any action to displace employees in order to hire employees at the youth minimum wage. Also prohibited are partial displacements such as reducing employees hours, wages, or employment benefits. HTH
- stevesearer 11y ago
  California: Although there are some exceptions, almost all employees in California must be paid the minimum wage as required by state law. Effective January 1, 2016, the minimum wage in California is $10.00 per hour. http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm
JamilD 11y ago
It's worth noting that the average age of a minimum wage worker is 35, and the majority are women [0]. Middle-aged women, not teenagers, are the demographic which the minimum wage affects the most. [0] http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.htm...
- clarkmoody 11y ago
  I would add that the minimum wage is also reflected in the unemployment rates, for those groups whose labor does not command even that low wage. This[1] BLS page has a granular breakdown of unemployment rate by age, gender, and race. The highest aggregate rate is among the youngest group (16-17 year olds). I would love to see tons of low-skill, low-pay jobs for young people who are looking, but instead we see very high unemployment for those younger ages. Also alarming is that the unemployment rate for young black men (16-17) is 45% right now. [1] http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm
- opo 11y ago
  Not sure how they came up with that. Pew Research summarized data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics: "People at or below the federal minimum are: Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19). Mostly (77%) white; nearly half are white women. Largely part-time workers (64% of the total)." http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-mi...
chadzawistowski 11y ago
42% of the American workforce makes $15/hr or less. http://fortune.com/2015/04/13/who-makes-15-per-hour/ http://fortune.com/2015/04/13/who-makes-15-per-hour/
dv_dt 11y ago
Teenagers don't need to live on this wage, but their parents need to have sufficient margin in their wages to support that.
- clarkmoody 11y ago
  Yes, but the alternative is that the teen sits around all summer causing trouble instead of having a job because the minimum wage is too high.
  - wonderlust 11y ago
    Hobbies, friends, summer school, cheap or free youth groups, parent sponsered events...
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    No, that isn't the alternative. There are thousands of summer programs, most educational in nature, which would be teaching the kid much more useful stuff than how to scoop ice cream.
falcolas 11y ago
How about homeless high school kids? Or high school kids with one parent who are helping to supplement their household income?
- moftz 11y ago
  There are other programs out there to support the homeless and single parents needing financial aid for their kids. A high school kid making money regardless of his family's wealth is making money as a supplement to what the parents or guardians should already be receiving from the government or otherwise, assuming they aren't emancipated but that is a very special case. If the parents can't afford to meet the basic needs of their child despite how ever much welfare they receive then why should the state allow for a child to remain in that home?
  - falcolas 11y ago
    This is, please forgive me, a very idealistic view of single parent families. It's very easy to earn too much money to qualify for welfare (or other government subsidies), while still not making quite enough to support a decent life. There are frequently waiting lists, restrictions (my favorite is disability, where you are not allowed to work, but are given barely enough money for yourself to live on), and miles of red tape associated with government subsidies. There's also the very real cost to the pride of the entire family associated with these subsidies. > why should the state allow for a child to remain in that home Because moving a child is incredibly traumatic for the child and expensive for the state?
pwthornton 11y ago
Employment of high school kids has been plummeting. This line of thinking you are exposing here has not kept up with the times and is more of a red herring. The teens most likely to work are not in school, and thus they actually need a living wage. Youth enrolled in high school had an employment rate of 18 percent. This is down from 36 percent in 1995: http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=youth-employment#sthash.utkH3fj9.dpuf http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=youth-employment#stha... And, again, the youth working while in school are more likely to come from lower socio-economic strata. They may in fact need that money.
- jeffdavis 11y ago
  Maybe it's been plummeting because of minimum wage or other laws discouraging labor of HS students. And is that a good thing or something we should try to reverse? Employment has a ramp-up like anything else.
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    Well, what is better, or more desirable? A high school student earning some gas money, or someone else getting that job and supporting themselves?
    - mc32 11y ago
      An alternative is to have a two tiered system [as some countries have]. One for teenagers, another for adults, to compensate for lack of experience, or proxy for need.
      - st3v3r 11y ago
        I don't trust crappy companies not to abuse the hell out of that system.
    - jeffdavis 11y ago
      A healthy career is a journey that often begins long before you depend on the money. A first job is more than just "gas money".
st3v3r 11y ago
"Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?" Yes. Otherwise why would you hire the someone who actually does need to live on that wage?

NDizzle 11y ago

I'm really interested to see what happens to the price of a season pass to the community swimming pool if/when doubling the minimum wage goes through.

VLM 11y ago
Probably roughly nothing. I pulled my (small) suburban cities budget which is a many hundred page long PDF and parks and rec runs 40-something neighborhood city playground type parks and 2 pools on 2.3 million total per year. Of which staggeringly only 1.5 mil are wages (we live in a rough climate, maintenance costs are high, over $100K spend on electric bills alone, etc). On the revenue side the two public pools combined pulled in about 1/3 of a million from fees collected at the door. Its pretty cheap compared to commercial entertainment (movie, restaurant, etc), they could certainly charge more without excluding too many people, given how much it costs to live here. I know from experience that they have a couple kid lifeguards at each pool all the time so lets say 10 total staff at all instants (LOL no) at $15/hr for 10 or so hours per day (LOL no not open that much), open about 100 days a year (LOL no they'd be ice skating in the spring on the pool if that were the case), if I multiplied this out correctly in my head, at $15/hr, the kid lifeguards cost $150K/yr while bringing in $340K of revenue. Note that I don't have the misfortune of living in CA, so the actual cost of a seasons lifeguards at the two pools is more like $80K. The cities very gross profit margin if by a miracle pools were free to build and maintain, just revenue divided by kid labor, is roughly $340K/$80K right now and if the min wage were $15 it would "collapse" to $340K/$150K which still ain't bad. Honestly I suspect the pool spends more on chlorine and electricity than on the kids labor. The capital cost is no laughing matter. The most recent ADA compliant complete remodel was something like $2M which for that one pool is roughly a decades revenue. This quick analysis leads to the conclusion that open hours for the pool are insanely profitable, and the "pool biz" is overall dominated by capital costs. The kids pay is irrelevant.
- justinhj 11y ago
  I don't expect public pools to be profitable anyway since they are subsidized by city taxes

rskar 11y ago

Per http://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/wages http://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/wages: The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires a minimum of not less than $4.25 per hour for employees under 20 years of age during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer. After 90 days of employment, or when the worker reaches age 20 (whichever comes first), the worker must receive the minimum wage. Employers are prohibited from taking any action to displace employees in order to hire employees at the youth minimum wage. Also prohibited are partial displacements such as reducing employees hours, wages, or employment benefits. HTH

stevesearer 11y ago
California: Although there are some exceptions, almost all employees in California must be paid the minimum wage as required by state law. Effective January 1, 2016, the minimum wage in California is $10.00 per hour. http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm

JamilD 11y ago

It's worth noting that the average age of a minimum wage worker is 35, and the majority are women [0]. Middle-aged women, not teenagers, are the demographic which the minimum wage affects the most. [0] http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.htm...

clarkmoody 11y ago
I would add that the minimum wage is also reflected in the unemployment rates, for those groups whose labor does not command even that low wage. This[1] BLS page has a granular breakdown of unemployment rate by age, gender, and race. The highest aggregate rate is among the youngest group (16-17 year olds). I would love to see tons of low-skill, low-pay jobs for young people who are looking, but instead we see very high unemployment for those younger ages. Also alarming is that the unemployment rate for young black men (16-17) is 45% right now. [1] http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm
opo 11y ago
Not sure how they came up with that. Pew Research summarized data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics: "People at or below the federal minimum are: Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19). Mostly (77%) white; nearly half are white women. Largely part-time workers (64% of the total)." http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-mi...

chadzawistowski 11y ago

42% of the American workforce makes $15/hr or less. http://fortune.com/2015/04/13/who-makes-15-per-hour/ http://fortune.com/2015/04/13/who-makes-15-per-hour/

dv_dt 11y ago

Teenagers don't need to live on this wage, but their parents need to have sufficient margin in their wages to support that.

clarkmoody 11y ago
Yes, but the alternative is that the teen sits around all summer causing trouble instead of having a job because the minimum wage is too high.
- wonderlust 11y ago
  Hobbies, friends, summer school, cheap or free youth groups, parent sponsered events...
- st3v3r 11y ago
  No, that isn't the alternative. There are thousands of summer programs, most educational in nature, which would be teaching the kid much more useful stuff than how to scoop ice cream.

falcolas 11y ago

How about homeless high school kids? Or high school kids with one parent who are helping to supplement their household income?

moftz 11y ago
There are other programs out there to support the homeless and single parents needing financial aid for their kids. A high school kid making money regardless of his family's wealth is making money as a supplement to what the parents or guardians should already be receiving from the government or otherwise, assuming they aren't emancipated but that is a very special case. If the parents can't afford to meet the basic needs of their child despite how ever much welfare they receive then why should the state allow for a child to remain in that home?
- falcolas 11y ago
  This is, please forgive me, a very idealistic view of single parent families. It's very easy to earn too much money to qualify for welfare (or other government subsidies), while still not making quite enough to support a decent life. There are frequently waiting lists, restrictions (my favorite is disability, where you are not allowed to work, but are given barely enough money for yourself to live on), and miles of red tape associated with government subsidies. There's also the very real cost to the pride of the entire family associated with these subsidies. > why should the state allow for a child to remain in that home Because moving a child is incredibly traumatic for the child and expensive for the state?

pwthornton 11y ago

Employment of high school kids has been plummeting. This line of thinking you are exposing here has not kept up with the times and is more of a red herring. The teens most likely to work are not in school, and thus they actually need a living wage. Youth enrolled in high school had an employment rate of 18 percent. This is down from 36 percent in 1995: http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=youth-employment#sthash.utkH3fj9.dpuf http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=youth-employment#stha... And, again, the youth working while in school are more likely to come from lower socio-economic strata. They may in fact need that money.

jeffdavis 11y ago
Maybe it's been plummeting because of minimum wage or other laws discouraging labor of HS students. And is that a good thing or something we should try to reverse? Employment has a ramp-up like anything else.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Well, what is better, or more desirable? A high school student earning some gas money, or someone else getting that job and supporting themselves?
  - mc32 11y ago
    An alternative is to have a two tiered system [as some countries have]. One for teenagers, another for adults, to compensate for lack of experience, or proxy for need.
    - st3v3r 11y ago
      I don't trust crappy companies not to abuse the hell out of that system.
  - jeffdavis 11y ago
    A healthy career is a journey that often begins long before you depend on the money. A first job is more than just "gas money".

st3v3r 11y ago

"Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?" Yes. Otherwise why would you hire the someone who actually does need to live on that wage?