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Note that if you read carefully, the guy was actively supported by the U.S. at the time he prepared the "revolution." He claims he's disappointed by Muslim Brot

by acqq 11y ago

Note that if you read carefully, the guy was actively supported by the U.S. at the time he prepared the "revolution." He claims he's disappointed by Muslim Brotherhood gaining power, but it was he who even helped them, he being then just "an activist" and they being a real "political group": "I negotiated agreements between activists and political groups like the Muslim Brotherhood." Note also that the Muslim Brotherhood was actively "the choice" of the U.S. at the time of the revolution. Now I'll quote the author once again as he describes the power struggle between the military and the Muslim Brotherhood: "The election represented Egyptian politics since the revolution: a power struggle between military dictators and religious fanatics. And the Muslim Brotherhood—whose religiosity, I believe, is a trojan horse for pure political ambition—treated activists just as harshly as the military." I personally don't believe the religion of Muslim Brotherhood is "a trojan horse," it's where they get the the goals of their political activity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood "The Brotherhood's English language website describes the principles of the Muslim Brotherhood as including firstly the introduction of the Islamic Sharia as "the basis for controlling the affairs of state and society" and secondly, work to unify "Islamic countries and states, mainly among the Arab states, and liberating them from foreign imperialism""

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
baltcode 11y ago
In reality, it was the Mubarak and Sisi regimes that have killed and tortured civilians in the thousands. There's a bit in the article about how Morsi issued a presidential decree making his actions unaccountable to the judiciary. This is a judiciary stacked during the Mubarak era that has sentenced dead people and infants to death in these political cases. Sisi's justice minister said that only the elite should keep controling the Egyptian judiciary and in his words, "a cleaner's son" has no right to be a judge. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/18564-denying-a-cleaners-son-the-right-to-become-a-judge https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/18564-denying-... Activists and journalists should investigate and bring to light the misdeeds of everyone including Morsi and the MB, but it is incredulous at this point to believe that the real problem with Egypt is not the corrupt elite of the military, crony businesses and the state apparatus. It wasn't the Muslim brotherhood, the left, or the liberals who were firing on crowds from helicopters, killing thousands in the streets. It was the military.
- acqq 11y ago
  The Muslim Brotherhood, being the religious extremists whose declared purpose was establishing Sharia-ruled state (my previous post), would lead people of Egypt to even worse situation that they are now (compared to the MB wishes, Egypt was more secular even before the "revolution"). Therefore I don't agree with your view. The U.S. supported "democratic spring" only brought Muslim Brotherhood to the power (and the article author knew he was helping that, in his words, he was an "activist" and they a "political" power). Note that after the article author fought to bring the "democracy" once the Muslim Brotherhood came to the power he became disillusioned in them (his words "religious fanatics"). Against the possibility to have an Iran equivalent (or worse) in Egypt (his words: "made us fear our country would soon look like an Iranian theocracy"), the activity of the military seems to have been necessary. Note also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood "as of 2015" Muslim Brotherhood "is considered a terrorist organization by the governments of Bahrain,[7][8] Egypt, Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates.[9][10][11][12]" But in 2011 the U.S. politicians and operatives called them "our guys" who "won" in Egypt. Recently, however: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/2230/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/223... "32) On May 27, 2015, a group of 159 Muslim Brotherhood-associated scholars from 35 nations announced the publication of a document endorsing violence in Egypt in response to a “war against Islam's principles.”." "It is the sense of Congress that— (1) the Muslim Brotherhood meets the criteria for designation as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189); and (2) the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury, should exercise the Secretary of State’s statutory authority by designating the Muslim Brotherhood as a foreign terrorist organization."
  - baltcode 11y ago
    Regardless of your view of religion, political position, Sharia etc., are you saying that the actions of the Egyptian military on 14th August 2013, in which they fired on civilians killing somewhere around 1000 people were justified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2013_Rabaa_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2013_Rabaa_massacre)? The negative of course does not mean justifying any actions of the MB or other groups.
testtesttest 11y ago
The Telegraph - Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising (9:23PM GMT 28 Jan 2011) > On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011. > The US government has previously been a supporter of Mr Mubarak’s regime. But the leaked documents show the extent to which America was offering support to pro-democracy activists in Egypt while publicly praising Mr Mubarak as an important ally in the Middle East. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289686/Egypt-protests-Americas-secret-backing-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce... > (C) Summary and comment: On December 23, April 6 activist xxxxxxxxxxxx expressed satisfaction with his participation in the December 3-5 "Alliance of Youth Movements Summit," and with his subsequent meetings with USG officials, on Capitol Hill, and with think tanks. He described how State Security (SSIS) detained him at the Cairo airport upon his return and confiscated his notes for his summit presentation calling for democratic change in Egypt, and his schedule for his Congressional meetings. > xxxxxxxxxxxx contended that the GOE will never undertake significant reform, and therefore, Egyptians need to replace the current regime with a parliamentary democracy. He alleged that several opposition parties and movements have accepted an unwritten plan for democratic transition by 2011; we are doubtful of this claim.* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289698/Egypt-protests-secret-US-document-discloses-support-for-protesters.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce... EDIT: Reformatted on request.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- acqq 11y ago
  Googling "Alliance of Youth Movements Summit" events gives the U.S. Department of State and... Google and Facebook: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2008/11/20081120122321eaifas0.3440363.html#axzz44u2DjXJO http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2008/11... "Facebook, Google, YouTube, MTV, Howcast, Columbia Law School and the U.S. Department of State Convene the Alliance of Youth Movements Summit Dec. 3-5 Summit in New York to Bring Together Global Youth Groups, Tech Experts to Find Best Ways to Use Digital Media to Promote Freedom and Justice, Counter Violence, Extremism and Oppression" http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2009/oct/130503.htm http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2009/oct/130503.htm "Sponsored by the U.S. Department of State, Facebook, Hi5, Google, MySpace, Gen Next, Howcast Media, MTV, PepsiCo, Mobile Behavior, Univisión, Interactive Media, Inc., Causecast.org, WordPress.com, Edelman, and YouTube, the event will convene individuals, government officials, academics, and private and public sector leaders from around the world October 14-16, 2009, to explore ways to advance grassroots movements seeking positive social change through 21st century technology and tools."
digi_owl 11y ago
Religion has always been a trojan horse for political power.
- krapp 11y ago
  It's only recently in modern history that religious and political power haven't always been one and the same.
knughit 11y ago
Arabs use "Sharia" like Americans use "Liberty". They just use the word because it sounds respectable, but they make it mean whatever suits their power.

by acqq 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

baltcode 11y ago

In reality, it was the Mubarak and Sisi regimes that have killed and tortured civilians in the thousands. There's a bit in the article about how Morsi issued a presidential decree making his actions unaccountable to the judiciary. This is a judiciary stacked during the Mubarak era that has sentenced dead people and infants to death in these political cases. Sisi's justice minister said that only the elite should keep controling the Egyptian judiciary and in his words, "a cleaner's son" has no right to be a judge. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/18564-denying-a-cleaners-son-the-right-to-become-a-judge https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/18564-denying-... Activists and journalists should investigate and bring to light the misdeeds of everyone including Morsi and the MB, but it is incredulous at this point to believe that the real problem with Egypt is not the corrupt elite of the military, crony businesses and the state apparatus. It wasn't the Muslim brotherhood, the left, or the liberals who were firing on crowds from helicopters, killing thousands in the streets. It was the military.

acqq 11y ago
The Muslim Brotherhood, being the religious extremists whose declared purpose was establishing Sharia-ruled state (my previous post), would lead people of Egypt to even worse situation that they are now (compared to the MB wishes, Egypt was more secular even before the "revolution"). Therefore I don't agree with your view. The U.S. supported "democratic spring" only brought Muslim Brotherhood to the power (and the article author knew he was helping that, in his words, he was an "activist" and they a "political" power). Note that after the article author fought to bring the "democracy" once the Muslim Brotherhood came to the power he became disillusioned in them (his words "religious fanatics"). Against the possibility to have an Iran equivalent (or worse) in Egypt (his words: "made us fear our country would soon look like an Iranian theocracy"), the activity of the military seems to have been necessary. Note also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood "as of 2015" Muslim Brotherhood "is considered a terrorist organization by the governments of Bahrain,[7][8] Egypt, Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates.[9][10][11][12]" But in 2011 the U.S. politicians and operatives called them "our guys" who "won" in Egypt. Recently, however: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/2230/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/223... "32) On May 27, 2015, a group of 159 Muslim Brotherhood-associated scholars from 35 nations announced the publication of a document endorsing violence in Egypt in response to a “war against Islam's principles.”." "It is the sense of Congress that— (1) the Muslim Brotherhood meets the criteria for designation as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189); and (2) the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury, should exercise the Secretary of State’s statutory authority by designating the Muslim Brotherhood as a foreign terrorist organization."
- baltcode 11y ago
  Regardless of your view of religion, political position, Sharia etc., are you saying that the actions of the Egyptian military on 14th August 2013, in which they fired on civilians killing somewhere around 1000 people were justified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2013_Rabaa_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2013_Rabaa_massacre)? The negative of course does not mean justifying any actions of the MB or other groups.

testtesttest 11y ago

The Telegraph - Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising (9:23PM GMT 28 Jan 2011) > On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011. > The US government has previously been a supporter of Mr Mubarak’s regime. But the leaked documents show the extent to which America was offering support to pro-democracy activists in Egypt while publicly praising Mr Mubarak as an important ally in the Middle East. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289686/Egypt-protests-Americas-secret-backing-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce... > (C) Summary and comment: On December 23, April 6 activist xxxxxxxxxxxx expressed satisfaction with his participation in the December 3-5 "Alliance of Youth Movements Summit," and with his subsequent meetings with USG officials, on Capitol Hill, and with think tanks. He described how State Security (SSIS) detained him at the Cairo airport upon his return and confiscated his notes for his summit presentation calling for democratic change in Egypt, and his schedule for his Congressional meetings. > xxxxxxxxxxxx contended that the GOE will never undertake significant reform, and therefore, Egyptians need to replace the current regime with a parliamentary democracy. He alleged that several opposition parties and movements have accepted an unwritten plan for democratic transition by 2011; we are doubtful of this claim.* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289698/Egypt-protests-secret-US-document-discloses-support-for-protesters.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce... EDIT: Reformatted on request.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
acqq 11y ago
Googling "Alliance of Youth Movements Summit" events gives the U.S. Department of State and... Google and Facebook: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2008/11/20081120122321eaifas0.3440363.html#axzz44u2DjXJO http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2008/11... "Facebook, Google, YouTube, MTV, Howcast, Columbia Law School and the U.S. Department of State Convene the Alliance of Youth Movements Summit Dec. 3-5 Summit in New York to Bring Together Global Youth Groups, Tech Experts to Find Best Ways to Use Digital Media to Promote Freedom and Justice, Counter Violence, Extremism and Oppression" http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2009/oct/130503.htm http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2009/oct/130503.htm "Sponsored by the U.S. Department of State, Facebook, Hi5, Google, MySpace, Gen Next, Howcast Media, MTV, PepsiCo, Mobile Behavior, Univisión, Interactive Media, Inc., Causecast.org, WordPress.com, Edelman, and YouTube, the event will convene individuals, government officials, academics, and private and public sector leaders from around the world October 14-16, 2009, to explore ways to advance grassroots movements seeking positive social change through 21st century technology and tools."

digi_owl 11y ago

Religion has always been a trojan horse for political power.

krapp 11y ago
It's only recently in modern history that religious and political power haven't always been one and the same.

knughit 11y ago

Arabs use "Sharia" like Americans use "Liberty". They just use the word because it sounds respectable, but they make it mean whatever suits their power.