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The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate w

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor. For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor force since they are no longer needed, tax money directly rather than going through government mediators in a piecemeal fashion like they do today. Of course McDonald's will have a higher tax burden to support these displaced workers. Rather than McDonald's shouldering the burden by itself, the government acts as an insurance company. It takes in taxes and payout what is essentially an existence claim.

johndevor 11y ago
Won't higher taxes here in the US drive more and more business overseas (specifically to China) and further exacerbate the problem of income inequality? We already see corporations keeping massive amounts of capital overseas because of high tax rates. That money should and could be here in the USA.
- camhenlin 11y ago
  Yes but it won't matter because the newly displaced workers will receive basic income!
- tangent128 11y ago
  What value exists in bringing that capital back "in" to the USA if it provides no benefit to US citizens in doing so?
  - randyrand 11y ago
    Its almost impossible to bring in wealth and not have it benefit people. People dont keep their trillions of dollars under the mattress. Its invested.
    - noobermin 11y ago
      >Its almost impossible to bring in wealth and not have it benefit people. Tell that to Bernie and Trump supporters so they can all pipe down.
- spinlock 11y ago
  businesses would look at total operating costs. Taxes are increased but payroll is decreased. It's a win if you can structure it such that the savings in payroll are greater than the increase in tax.
- bufordsharkley 11y ago
  This is one reason why a UBI really needs to be attached to something that can't leave the country, namely a land-value tax.
- virmundi 11y ago
  I agree, but the theory goes that eventually tax havens will disappear. Europe would probably adopt UBI along with us. So those lower rates would go away. China would do something similar or would be too scary for westerners to fully flee to. Right now many companies are fleeing to Europe for better corporate rates while their C level employees benefit from lower personal tax rates in the US.
  - home_boi 11y ago
    Or some countries will take advantage of these fleeing westerners and keep their tax rates lower than the US
    - virmundi 11y ago
      True. Then the US has to lower its rates or the low tax company has to increase due to social unrest. We see this with China. The rising wealth of the writing class is causing party increases. So large that work us coming back to the US or to other south Asian countries.
  - randyrand 11y ago
    Or any enterprising country will keep their tax rates low and take all the manufacturing business. Go figure.
- msellout 11y ago
  Empirically, no. Or at least not to the extent that many people fear. Many businesses are headquartered in NYC, despite the city's extra taxes.
  - Turing_Machine 11y ago
    They may be "headquartered" in NYC, but they're domiciled in Delaware, Nevada, etc. and their production facilities are located in China or Indonesia.
    - msellout 11y ago
      They still employ a large number of New Yorkers. And it's not just New York. Take any major city. Better employee productivity balances the higher costs. Not always, so some companies relocate. But many stay.
- ThrustVectoring 11y ago
  That's a most of why I'd like to fund GBI in part with a land-value tax.
danvoell 11y ago
What happens to the people who can't get jobs to begin with? Also, does this make it harder for companies like McDonalds to higher people, if they are worried that the employee might be a future claimant?
wonderlust 11y ago
Wouldn't it be a better idea to have unions, and have them negotiate shared ownership? It seems that some people have already solved the problem with dividends in companies they own part of.
floppydisk 11y ago
Playing devil's advocate, what happens to businesses in the presence of an even higher regulatory and tax environment and what will the impact of increased taxes be on employment and business viability as well as the cost of living? For the sake of argument, think about businesses with razor thin margins like restaurants. In the presence of increased taxes, their margins significantly diminish, if not vanish, and it becomes increasingly unviable for the business to stay in business. Once they shutter their doors, the tax base and employment decreases. Extending the argument, consider other organizations that have a healthier margin and are growing and hiring. The presence of substantially increased taxation raises the costs of growth (re: hiring) and raises the costs of employing Americans and earning money in America which reduces their ability to compensate employees / develop new products etc. Yes, they might have the margin to pay the increased tax rate, but the tradeoff is they lose money that goes into R&D, increasing salaries, hiring more people, and other business activities we think are good and useful. As a consumer, I'm also curious to know what this does to my cost of living. Prices will not stay static and if businesses are incurring higher costs to produce goods and services, those get reflected in price. Given wages aren't keeping pace with inflation, what will a sudden price shock do to the cost of living in the face of businesses adjusting prices to address the new taxes? This could take people who are getting by now and turn them into a new wave of impoverished as necessary goods and services increase in price or it could prevent UBI from achieving its goal because prices keep rising to offset the tax rate which puts goods and services outside what people can afford on UBI.
- ricardobeat 11y ago
  > For the sake of argument, think about businesses with razor thin margins like restaurants. In the presence of increased taxes, their margins significantly diminish, if not vanish, and it becomes increasingly unviable for the business to stay in business. Once they shutter their doors, the tax base and employment decreases. That's a big assumption. As long as there is demand in a free market, they will stay in business and prices will adjust accordingly. Or not, since they might get more business from all these people who now have a minimum income. Also consider that the trend is for operational costs to go down with continued automation of the whole production chain.

johndevor 11y ago

Won't higher taxes here in the US drive more and more business overseas (specifically to China) and further exacerbate the problem of income inequality? We already see corporations keeping massive amounts of capital overseas because of high tax rates. That money should and could be here in the USA.

camhenlin 11y ago
Yes but it won't matter because the newly displaced workers will receive basic income!
tangent128 11y ago
What value exists in bringing that capital back "in" to the USA if it provides no benefit to US citizens in doing so?
- randyrand 11y ago
  Its almost impossible to bring in wealth and not have it benefit people. People dont keep their trillions of dollars under the mattress. Its invested.
  - noobermin 11y ago
    >Its almost impossible to bring in wealth and not have it benefit people. Tell that to Bernie and Trump supporters so they can all pipe down.
spinlock 11y ago
businesses would look at total operating costs. Taxes are increased but payroll is decreased. It's a win if you can structure it such that the savings in payroll are greater than the increase in tax.
bufordsharkley 11y ago
This is one reason why a UBI really needs to be attached to something that can't leave the country, namely a land-value tax.
virmundi 11y ago
I agree, but the theory goes that eventually tax havens will disappear. Europe would probably adopt UBI along with us. So those lower rates would go away. China would do something similar or would be too scary for westerners to fully flee to. Right now many companies are fleeing to Europe for better corporate rates while their C level employees benefit from lower personal tax rates in the US.
- home_boi 11y ago
  Or some countries will take advantage of these fleeing westerners and keep their tax rates lower than the US
  - virmundi 11y ago
    True. Then the US has to lower its rates or the low tax company has to increase due to social unrest. We see this with China. The rising wealth of the writing class is causing party increases. So large that work us coming back to the US or to other south Asian countries.
- randyrand 11y ago
  Or any enterprising country will keep their tax rates low and take all the manufacturing business. Go figure.
msellout 11y ago
Empirically, no. Or at least not to the extent that many people fear. Many businesses are headquartered in NYC, despite the city's extra taxes.
- Turing_Machine 11y ago
  They may be "headquartered" in NYC, but they're domiciled in Delaware, Nevada, etc. and their production facilities are located in China or Indonesia.
  - msellout 11y ago
    They still employ a large number of New Yorkers. And it's not just New York. Take any major city. Better employee productivity balances the higher costs. Not always, so some companies relocate. But many stay.
ThrustVectoring 11y ago
That's a most of why I'd like to fund GBI in part with a land-value tax.

danvoell 11y ago

What happens to the people who can't get jobs to begin with? Also, does this make it harder for companies like McDonalds to higher people, if they are worried that the employee might be a future claimant?

wonderlust 11y ago

Wouldn't it be a better idea to have unions, and have them negotiate shared ownership? It seems that some people have already solved the problem with dividends in companies they own part of.

floppydisk 11y ago

Playing devil's advocate, what happens to businesses in the presence of an even higher regulatory and tax environment and what will the impact of increased taxes be on employment and business viability as well as the cost of living? For the sake of argument, think about businesses with razor thin margins like restaurants. In the presence of increased taxes, their margins significantly diminish, if not vanish, and it becomes increasingly unviable for the business to stay in business. Once they shutter their doors, the tax base and employment decreases. Extending the argument, consider other organizations that have a healthier margin and are growing and hiring. The presence of substantially increased taxation raises the costs of growth (re: hiring) and raises the costs of employing Americans and earning money in America which reduces their ability to compensate employees / develop new products etc. Yes, they might have the margin to pay the increased tax rate, but the tradeoff is they lose money that goes into R&D, increasing salaries, hiring more people, and other business activities we think are good and useful. As a consumer, I'm also curious to know what this does to my cost of living. Prices will not stay static and if businesses are incurring higher costs to produce goods and services, those get reflected in price. Given wages aren't keeping pace with inflation, what will a sudden price shock do to the cost of living in the face of businesses adjusting prices to address the new taxes? This could take people who are getting by now and turn them into a new wave of impoverished as necessary goods and services increase in price or it could prevent UBI from achieving its goal because prices keep rising to offset the tax rate which puts goods and services outside what people can afford on UBI.

ricardobeat 11y ago
> For the sake of argument, think about businesses with razor thin margins like restaurants. In the presence of increased taxes, their margins significantly diminish, if not vanish, and it becomes increasingly unviable for the business to stay in business. Once they shutter their doors, the tax base and employment decreases. That's a big assumption. As long as there is demand in a free market, they will stay in business and prices will adjust accordingly. Or not, since they might get more business from all these people who now have a minimum income. Also consider that the trend is for operational costs to go down with continued automation of the whole production chain.