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I would have thought that a UBI would replace most or all existing entitlement programs. But perhaps people have different ideas? And you're right, of course,

I would have thought that a UBI would replace most or all existing entitlement programs. But perhaps people have different ideas? And you're right, of course, that the poor in the U.S. generally are not literally starving. Though their poor health and high obesity rates are themselves symptoms of their limited access to healthy food, and difficulty maintaining a healthy lifestyle that may be due to other poverty-induced stressors.

DanielBMarkham 11y ago
Yes, from the very limited research I've done, the key question in the UBI discussion is this: what the heck is it? It's a great slogan, but you have to add at least a dozen or two bullet points or it can mean so many things that it effectively means nothing.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  Interesting. I have always thought that its simplicity was its primary virtue. The government winds down all of its existing entitlement programs (except, perhaps, for health insurance) and, instead, writes everyone a check for $x per month. The big question is just the right value of x. But it sounds like you've looked at this harder than I have. What are the questions I'm overlooking?
  - DanielBMarkham 11y ago
    I'm on the road right now, but here's an in-depth article I read awhile back. Note that I'm not against the idea. In fact, I think it has huge merit. But just like everything else, the devil is in the details. Just like in startups, in policy an idea is mostly useless. It's the execution that matters. We really need to see several dozen different governmental entities give this a shot in order to start having any kind of intelligent discussion at all. Look forward to seeing that happen. (PDF link follows) http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa773.pdf http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa773.p...
walterstucco 11y ago
they are just a symptom of a very bad healthcare system. in many European countries the universal HCS takes care of everyone. My country, Italy, is quite bad in everything, except for good and the quality of the free healthcare (free as in paid by taxes)
btown 11y ago
This makes me wonder if food deserts would persist even in a UBI world. Within a traditionally poor community, with a lack of education about healthy eating as well as a lack of competition between grocery stores, could we see locations where all foodstuffs became more expensive, and people maintained their existing eating habits? I'll need to do much deeper thinking on this.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  I expect they would persist. The poor, ultimately, would remain poor unless we're talking about a UBI well above anything anyone has proposed for the United States. But UBI could help alleviate the significant stresses of navigating the byzantine U.S. entitlement programs, reduce the stigmatizing effect of poverty by eliminating the application processes for entitlements, and save money on the government side by reducing complexity and bureaucracy.
aetherson 11y ago
I think it would be politically difficult to replace most or all existing entitlement programs with a basic income. When you get a bunch of disabled people up on stage and they say, "Wait a minute, we are genuinely unable to work most jobs, and we have special needs to just get through the day, and you propose to just give us the same amount of money you do to some 22 year old healthy slacker from a good family who wants to take a few years to play X-Box?" and you're already trying a very very contentious policy proposal, is that the hill you want to die on? If not, we still have disability. What about the just genuinely irresponsible mother who blows her income on, whatever, in-app purchases, and then she and her children are homeless and starving. Do you say, "Well, tough break, you could've been more responsible" or do you have programs to keep them fed and off the streets? Food stamps and Section 8 are back. Healthcare pretty much has to continue to be separately subsidized unless you want anyone who has enough bad luck to have an expensive health condition that exceeds the value of basic income to die. At that point, is there a really significant entitlement program still off the table? (Edit: Sorry, yes, of course there is one significant entitlement program not touched on above: Social Security. I think you might somewhat reasonably make a basic income essentially "Social Security for everyone," and avoid having a special carve-out for seniors by saying, "We're not taking away your social security, we're just giving social security to more and more people.")
- kmonsen 11y ago
  I always thought it would replace existing programs, but you have made me realize this is not true. I guess in the end it comes up to do we believe in personal responsibility or not, and if the state or parents are responsible for children. (It looks like I am in the camp that does not think children should starve because they have irresponsible parents).

DanielBMarkham 11y ago

Yes, from the very limited research I've done, the key question in the UBI discussion is this: what the heck is it? It's a great slogan, but you have to add at least a dozen or two bullet points or it can mean so many things that it effectively means nothing.

pdabbadabba 11y ago
Interesting. I have always thought that its simplicity was its primary virtue. The government winds down all of its existing entitlement programs (except, perhaps, for health insurance) and, instead, writes everyone a check for $x per month. The big question is just the right value of x. But it sounds like you've looked at this harder than I have. What are the questions I'm overlooking?
- DanielBMarkham 11y ago
  I'm on the road right now, but here's an in-depth article I read awhile back. Note that I'm not against the idea. In fact, I think it has huge merit. But just like everything else, the devil is in the details. Just like in startups, in policy an idea is mostly useless. It's the execution that matters. We really need to see several dozen different governmental entities give this a shot in order to start having any kind of intelligent discussion at all. Look forward to seeing that happen. (PDF link follows) http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa773.pdf http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa773.p...

walterstucco 11y ago

they are just a symptom of a very bad healthcare system. in many European countries the universal HCS takes care of everyone. My country, Italy, is quite bad in everything, except for good and the quality of the free healthcare (free as in paid by taxes)

btown 11y ago

This makes me wonder if food deserts would persist even in a UBI world. Within a traditionally poor community, with a lack of education about healthy eating as well as a lack of competition between grocery stores, could we see locations where all foodstuffs became more expensive, and people maintained their existing eating habits? I'll need to do much deeper thinking on this.

pdabbadabba 11y ago
I expect they would persist. The poor, ultimately, would remain poor unless we're talking about a UBI well above anything anyone has proposed for the United States. But UBI could help alleviate the significant stresses of navigating the byzantine U.S. entitlement programs, reduce the stigmatizing effect of poverty by eliminating the application processes for entitlements, and save money on the government side by reducing complexity and bureaucracy.

aetherson 11y ago

I think it would be politically difficult to replace most or all existing entitlement programs with a basic income. When you get a bunch of disabled people up on stage and they say, "Wait a minute, we are genuinely unable to work most jobs, and we have special needs to just get through the day, and you propose to just give us the same amount of money you do to some 22 year old healthy slacker from a good family who wants to take a few years to play X-Box?" and you're already trying a very very contentious policy proposal, is that the hill you want to die on? If not, we still have disability. What about the just genuinely irresponsible mother who blows her income on, whatever, in-app purchases, and then she and her children are homeless and starving. Do you say, "Well, tough break, you could've been more responsible" or do you have programs to keep them fed and off the streets? Food stamps and Section 8 are back. Healthcare pretty much has to continue to be separately subsidized unless you want anyone who has enough bad luck to have an expensive health condition that exceeds the value of basic income to die. At that point, is there a really significant entitlement program still off the table? (Edit: Sorry, yes, of course there is one significant entitlement program not touched on above: Social Security. I think you might somewhat reasonably make a basic income essentially "Social Security for everyone," and avoid having a special carve-out for seniors by saying, "We're not taking away your social security, we're just giving social security to more and more people.")

kmonsen 11y ago
I always thought it would replace existing programs, but you have made me realize this is not true. I guess in the end it comes up to do we believe in personal responsibility or not, and if the state or parents are responsible for children. (It looks like I am in the camp that does not think children should starve because they have irresponsible parents).