3 ms·

Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power.

by Mikeb85 11y ago

jff 11y ago
> Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power. What's the alternative elsewhere? Warlord power?
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  Well, there are plenty of countries ruled by competing warlords... Ideally in a functioning democracy you can replace the government for one which represents the people, but in the US the 'establishment' controls them anyway. Simply put, better to demand a guaranteed income from the government, then to put it off for fear of them abusing power, only to cede control to entities who are worse...
cmrdporcupine 11y ago
There's a difference?
merpnderp 11y ago
Without government power, corporations don't have any power. They only exert their power through the government. What, is Apple coming to my house to tell me what to do, how I can work, or to collect a tax? Just like Disney keeps you from file sharing by using the government, so does the your local health insurance company keep out the competition by excessive government regulations they helped write.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  Without government intervention, corporations control the labour market. With no minimum wage, no basic income, and increasing automation, do you really think corporations wouldn't drive wages down to zero? There are countries with little to no government intervention, and countries with lots. The latter are objectively much better places.
  - merpnderp 11y ago
    This is always the response to any libertarian argument of even mild government reform "If you don't like it, then go live in Somalia". As if rolling back government intervention in the economy to something like say the booming 1950's isn't a rational proposal.
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
      It's because history shows that more government intervention, especially in the domain of education, health and labour, creates better societies. Two words: New Deal. Most of the US' prosperity since has been as a result of this. Then in the 1980's it was rolled back and guess what? Things are going to shit again. Maybe not in NY and California, but large swaths of the US are mired in poverty, poor employment prospects, crumbling infrastructure and shitty education. How about Europe? Here's a bunch of tiny states with different languages, pretty much zero resources, very little land, who accept unprecedented amounts of immigration (partially to their detriment), who are still able to provide their citizens with the highest standards of living in the world. Show me a single large, prosperous, libertarian state. Not a city-state that cannibalises their neighbours' resources and acts like a tax haven (Monaco, Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Singapore, etc...) - but a large, prosperous, diverse state that is libertarian. The problem is, there are none.
      - merpnderp 11y ago
        Only 6 European countries have a higher GDP than the US's poorest state, and none are close to the US GDP. And the US GDP has grown significantly faster than Europe's since the 1980's. I don't consider my state that rich, but we're 4 places above Germany. https://www.aei.org/publication/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-vs-european-countries-and-japan-korea-mexico-and-china-and-some-lessons-for-the-donald/ https://www.aei.org/publication/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-v...
        Mikeb85 11y ago
        GDP divided by # of people doesn't accurately reflect quality of life... Especially when a good portion of GDP is derived from resources, and not necessarily spread to the population. There's plenty of indexes that offer better insight. http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.js... https://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf https://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/04/these-countries-have-the-best-quality-of-life_n_8470292.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/04/these-countries-h... Even indexes that do rate the US highly, generally weight income highly. In life expectancy, health, education, and metrics which don't take into account income, the US doesn't do great.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power.

by Mikeb85 11y ago

Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power.

jff 11y ago

> Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power. What's the alternative elsewhere? Warlord power?

Mikeb85 11y ago
Well, there are plenty of countries ruled by competing warlords... Ideally in a functioning democracy you can replace the government for one which represents the people, but in the US the 'establishment' controls them anyway. Simply put, better to demand a guaranteed income from the government, then to put it off for fear of them abusing power, only to cede control to entities who are worse...

cmrdporcupine 11y ago

There's a difference?

merpnderp 11y ago

Without government power, corporations don't have any power. They only exert their power through the government. What, is Apple coming to my house to tell me what to do, how I can work, or to collect a tax? Just like Disney keeps you from file sharing by using the government, so does the your local health insurance company keep out the competition by excessive government regulations they helped write.

Mikeb85 11y ago
Without government intervention, corporations control the labour market. With no minimum wage, no basic income, and increasing automation, do you really think corporations wouldn't drive wages down to zero? There are countries with little to no government intervention, and countries with lots. The latter are objectively much better places.
- merpnderp 11y ago
  This is always the response to any libertarian argument of even mild government reform "If you don't like it, then go live in Somalia". As if rolling back government intervention in the economy to something like say the booming 1950's isn't a rational proposal.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    It's because history shows that more government intervention, especially in the domain of education, health and labour, creates better societies. Two words: New Deal. Most of the US' prosperity since has been as a result of this. Then in the 1980's it was rolled back and guess what? Things are going to shit again. Maybe not in NY and California, but large swaths of the US are mired in poverty, poor employment prospects, crumbling infrastructure and shitty education. How about Europe? Here's a bunch of tiny states with different languages, pretty much zero resources, very little land, who accept unprecedented amounts of immigration (partially to their detriment), who are still able to provide their citizens with the highest standards of living in the world. Show me a single large, prosperous, libertarian state. Not a city-state that cannibalises their neighbours' resources and acts like a tax haven (Monaco, Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Singapore, etc...) - but a large, prosperous, diverse state that is libertarian. The problem is, there are none.
    - merpnderp 11y ago
      Only 6 European countries have a higher GDP than the US's poorest state, and none are close to the US GDP. And the US GDP has grown significantly faster than Europe's since the 1980's. I don't consider my state that rich, but we're 4 places above Germany. https://www.aei.org/publication/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-vs-european-countries-and-japan-korea-mexico-and-china-and-some-lessons-for-the-donald/ https://www.aei.org/publication/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-v...
      - Mikeb85 11y ago
        GDP divided by # of people doesn't accurately reflect quality of life... Especially when a good portion of GDP is derived from resources, and not necessarily spread to the population. There's plenty of indexes that offer better insight. http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.js... https://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf https://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/04/these-countries-have-the-best-quality-of-life_n_8470292.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/04/these-countries-h... Even indexes that do rate the US highly, generally weight income highly. In life expectancy, health, education, and metrics which don't take into account income, the US doesn't do great.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]