5 ms·

> arrogance of a company making a webcam that sends your video to their servers, and provides no means to use the camera in a secure/local fashion I basically

by mhurron 11y ago

> arrogance of a company making a webcam that sends your video to their servers, and provides no means to use the camera in a secure/local fashion I basically say the same thing about every 'smart home' device. I would love to be able to query my thermostat to find out when and how long it turned the heat/AC on and whatnot, but I only want it to talk to my local wifi and devices. I don't want it to use a cloud service at all for anything ever. I don't have that option, so I don't use them.

SwellJoe 11y ago
After the Dropcam fiasco, I wondered if there would be a market for secure smart devices with an open API. To me, it's an obvious benefit and one that I would buy (whereas I won't buy the cloud-based devices of this sort), but I suspect the ease of use of something like Dropcam trumps all of the other considerations. I even considered doing a Kickstarter to build something in that space; the technical side, both hardware and software, is actually very, very, simple these days. I mean, a thermostat is a temperature sensor, a clock, and some switches; the kind of thing electronics nerds put together when first learning. The smallest Arduino could more than handle the task (for the prototype, and a dedicated device could be manufactured in quantity very cheaply). Controlling switches and sensors in software is also very simple. Making a beautiful UI (which I think is a big part of the appeal of Nest, Dropcam, and the like) is more challenging, for me, but perhaps there's a UI/UX designer out there who has similar inclinations. I never thought I'd want to be in the home automation business, or the web cam business, but this kind of thing is just so offensive to me, that whenever I think about it, I want to do something.
- ghaff 11y ago
  I haven't tried it personally but I know a few people who think highly of SmartThings [1], which is a relatively open platform. I've also experimented with Raspberry Pis. However, to be honest, there are a fairly limited number of "smart" things I can do around my house which would be genuinely useful. [1] http://developer.smartthings.com/ http://developer.smartthings.com/
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    That does look promising. It's kinda hard to tell how SmartThings all fits together with devices and what level of control consumers actually have, but, the word "open" appears a lot in their copy.
  - crispyambulance 11y ago
    It is a neat platform. I use it myself. HOWEVER.... it DOES rely upon Smartthings "in the cloud". Every interaction with sensors is mediated through the cloud and if something goes wrong on their side (and it does) mayhem ensues. FWIW, the developer platform consists of writing groovy scripts in their web-based IDE. The code runs on their servers, not your devices.
    - vorg 11y ago
      It's not just Smartthings which betray users by collecting all your data. If you need documentation help with writing those Apache Groovy scripts, you might think going to the Apache website to look up Groovy would provide a safe browsing experience. But virtually every link there for Groovy redirects to groovy-lang.org. Look up the DNS name registry and you'll see your IP address isn't being collected by Apache, or even a business -- that domain name is owned by a single private individual without any business or non-profit affiliation. When it comes to business ethics, like attracts like.
- petra 11y ago
  Looking at the trends in computing,coffee makers,printers,routers etc, it kinda seems like a lost battle, isn't it?
- seanp2k2 11y ago
  Moteino is pretty cool if you want to DIY: http://lowpowerlab.com/moteino/ http://lowpowerlab.com/moteino/
- crispyambulance 11y ago
  The problem with taking these things out of the cloud is that you're then a hardware provider rather than a service provider. Your revenue would come from selling increasingly inexpensive hardware and/or trying to sell your software to run in a consumer environment where you have very little control. Very few companies can make money that way. Smartthings is backed by Samsung (800 lb gorilla). They appear to be playing a long game now because they provide cloud-backed service (for free) and cheap hardware. The strategy will very clear shift towards subscription service eventually, IMHO.
  - scrupulusalbion 11y ago
    Perhaps a hybrid business model could be achieved by setting the hardware to talk to a central server of the user's choice. The server software would be open source and be manageable via a web interface, which is mobile-friendly. The company would simultaneously offer a cloud-based alternative for a monthly fee, so that the user could avoid having to setup his/her own server. As a third option, each device could be managed individually; this is likely most appropriate if the user only has a single device. So long as the company does not go rogue and purposefully brick the devices, then the company could shutdown and the devices could still be usable. Further, other companies could provide remote management services for these devices. Being IoT devices, though, would make them still susceptible to security issues, but at least being able to use them on a segregated network could limit that from happening.
roel_v 11y ago
There are plenty of smart home devices that work without any form of internet connection. Have been for 20+ years, too.
- mhurron 11y ago
  I have only seen ones that allow you to program them (wake, leave, return, sleep) but wifi enabled for querying I have only seen ones that require a cloud account, even if you can also locally query them.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  There's "smart", as defined 20 years ago...which is timers, complex schedules, etc. And, then there's "smart" as we define it today, which is WiFi, browser or app-based UI, etc. I'm unaware of a Nest competitor that is not tied to the cloud-based service of the provider. I am not super attuned to the market, however. Things have likely (hopefully) changed since last I researched things like Nest a year or two ago.
  - roel_v 11y ago
    Yes, I have a system with browser and mobile ui, based on zwave, 433mhz and modbus devives. The software I use is symcon, which has existed for 5 years at the least; but there is also eg openhab for those insisting on open source only. I optionally have internet integration too, but strictly optional.
  - eldenbishop 11y ago
    Apple HomeKit works without cloud services. It is entirely local with your phone, mac, iPad etc directly interacting with the devices. I'm sure some of the individual devices from partners may leverage cloud services but I have yet to purchase a device that requires it. The only "cloud" aspect is if you want remote access to your devices an AppleTV can act as a proxy/gateway that let's you control your device from the internet rather than the local network. The eco-system is a hot mess at the moment but the basic design is well thought out.

by mhurron 11y ago

SwellJoe 11y ago

After the Dropcam fiasco, I wondered if there would be a market for secure smart devices with an open API. To me, it's an obvious benefit and one that I would buy (whereas I won't buy the cloud-based devices of this sort), but I suspect the ease of use of something like Dropcam trumps all of the other considerations. I even considered doing a Kickstarter to build something in that space; the technical side, both hardware and software, is actually very, very, simple these days. I mean, a thermostat is a temperature sensor, a clock, and some switches; the kind of thing electronics nerds put together when first learning. The smallest Arduino could more than handle the task (for the prototype, and a dedicated device could be manufactured in quantity very cheaply). Controlling switches and sensors in software is also very simple. Making a beautiful UI (which I think is a big part of the appeal of Nest, Dropcam, and the like) is more challenging, for me, but perhaps there's a UI/UX designer out there who has similar inclinations. I never thought I'd want to be in the home automation business, or the web cam business, but this kind of thing is just so offensive to me, that whenever I think about it, I want to do something.

ghaff 11y ago
I haven't tried it personally but I know a few people who think highly of SmartThings [1], which is a relatively open platform. I've also experimented with Raspberry Pis. However, to be honest, there are a fairly limited number of "smart" things I can do around my house which would be genuinely useful. [1] http://developer.smartthings.com/ http://developer.smartthings.com/
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  That does look promising. It's kinda hard to tell how SmartThings all fits together with devices and what level of control consumers actually have, but, the word "open" appears a lot in their copy.
- crispyambulance 11y ago
  It is a neat platform. I use it myself. HOWEVER.... it DOES rely upon Smartthings "in the cloud". Every interaction with sensors is mediated through the cloud and if something goes wrong on their side (and it does) mayhem ensues. FWIW, the developer platform consists of writing groovy scripts in their web-based IDE. The code runs on their servers, not your devices.
  - vorg 11y ago
    It's not just Smartthings which betray users by collecting all your data. If you need documentation help with writing those Apache Groovy scripts, you might think going to the Apache website to look up Groovy would provide a safe browsing experience. But virtually every link there for Groovy redirects to groovy-lang.org. Look up the DNS name registry and you'll see your IP address isn't being collected by Apache, or even a business -- that domain name is owned by a single private individual without any business or non-profit affiliation. When it comes to business ethics, like attracts like.
petra 11y ago
Looking at the trends in computing,coffee makers,printers,routers etc, it kinda seems like a lost battle, isn't it?
seanp2k2 11y ago
Moteino is pretty cool if you want to DIY: http://lowpowerlab.com/moteino/ http://lowpowerlab.com/moteino/
crispyambulance 11y ago
The problem with taking these things out of the cloud is that you're then a hardware provider rather than a service provider. Your revenue would come from selling increasingly inexpensive hardware and/or trying to sell your software to run in a consumer environment where you have very little control. Very few companies can make money that way. Smartthings is backed by Samsung (800 lb gorilla). They appear to be playing a long game now because they provide cloud-backed service (for free) and cheap hardware. The strategy will very clear shift towards subscription service eventually, IMHO.
- scrupulusalbion 11y ago
  Perhaps a hybrid business model could be achieved by setting the hardware to talk to a central server of the user's choice. The server software would be open source and be manageable via a web interface, which is mobile-friendly. The company would simultaneously offer a cloud-based alternative for a monthly fee, so that the user could avoid having to setup his/her own server. As a third option, each device could be managed individually; this is likely most appropriate if the user only has a single device. So long as the company does not go rogue and purposefully brick the devices, then the company could shutdown and the devices could still be usable. Further, other companies could provide remote management services for these devices. Being IoT devices, though, would make them still susceptible to security issues, but at least being able to use them on a segregated network could limit that from happening.

roel_v 11y ago

There are plenty of smart home devices that work without any form of internet connection. Have been for 20+ years, too.

mhurron 11y ago
I have only seen ones that allow you to program them (wake, leave, return, sleep) but wifi enabled for querying I have only seen ones that require a cloud account, even if you can also locally query them.
SwellJoe 11y ago
There's "smart", as defined 20 years ago...which is timers, complex schedules, etc. And, then there's "smart" as we define it today, which is WiFi, browser or app-based UI, etc. I'm unaware of a Nest competitor that is not tied to the cloud-based service of the provider. I am not super attuned to the market, however. Things have likely (hopefully) changed since last I researched things like Nest a year or two ago.
- roel_v 11y ago
  Yes, I have a system with browser and mobile ui, based on zwave, 433mhz and modbus devives. The software I use is symcon, which has existed for 5 years at the least; but there is also eg openhab for those insisting on open source only. I optionally have internet integration too, but strictly optional.
- eldenbishop 11y ago
  Apple HomeKit works without cloud services. It is entirely local with your phone, mac, iPad etc directly interacting with the devices. I'm sure some of the individual devices from partners may leverage cloud services but I have yet to purchase a device that requires it. The only "cloud" aspect is if you want remote access to your devices an AppleTV can act as a proxy/gateway that let's you control your device from the internet rather than the local network. The eco-system is a hot mess at the moment but the basic design is well thought out.