4 ms·

Then you are missing the point he is making. LEON is a GPL implementation of SPARCv8 which you can download and use in an FPGA, tape out your own ASIC or buy on

Then you are missing the point he is making. LEON is a GPL implementation of SPARCv8 which you can download and use in an FPGA, tape out your own ASIC or buy one of the existing SoCs built with it (might not be that easy...). In other words, more open than the alternatives listed.

nickpsecurity 11y ago
Exactly. There's a ton of implementations ranging from free for FPGA's to S-ASIC's from eASIC to embedded CPU's from Gaisler to cloud servers from Oracle to mainframes from Fujitsu & Russia. One can also legally clean-slate a SPARC chip without legal fears. Unlike POWER, ARM, and MIPS. The ISA, its docs, a firmware standard... all of that already open. So, why is it not on the table for... anything in FOSS? Doesn't seem rational. Even a bit hypocritical given vendors like Gaisler and nonprofits like SPARC International have met FOSS halfway or almost wholly. Unlike the others that sue FOSS developers.
- CyberDildonics 11y ago
  This makes me wonder why we don't see sparc chips in things like routers or other hardware that doesn't require lots of binary compatibility from 3rd party software.
  - wolfgke 11y ago
    Because ARM and MIPS chips are a lot more power-efficient.
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      Because the chip-makers and chip buyers are using ARM and MIPS in power-efficient SOC's. They could do the same with SPARC. They just didn't for whatever reasons. Far as power efficiency, kristoffer might be able to chime in as it's not in the data sheets for Gaisler. That's suspicious: either the numbers are bad or they leave it off given its meant for customization. Anyway, the Leon4... http://www.gaisler.com/index.php/products/processors/leon4?task=view&id=338 http://www.gaisler.com/index.php/products/processors/leon4?t... ...uses 30,000 gates per core. Same ballpark as ARM and MIPS. Power use should be similar or at least acceptable if comparing ARM, MIPS, and Leon on same ASIC process. They often do rad-hard given it makes it resistant to SEU errors. That takes plenty of extra circuitry. Numbers I have for those, the high end, are 15mW per 1Mhz for Leon3RadHard and for Leon4RadHardQuadCore max was 6watts per one slideshow. I'll take 6watts consumption in a router in exchange for quad-core, IOMMU-enabled, fault-tolerant, open CPU. What about you? Would 6 watts kill it for you?
      - wolfgke 11y ago
        > I'll take 6watts consumption in a router in exchange for quad-core, IOMMU-enabled, fault-tolerant, open CPU. The router vendor surely looks at the cost of the CPU - ARM and MIPS cores are probably much cheaper.
        nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Remember, I mentioned the SOC vendors as well. They currently license MIPS and ARM. Many choose MIPS due to cheap license. ARM's license, royalties, and restrictions are ridiculously expensive. SPARC has a cost advantage over it. So, once again, it's neither energy nor costs that are reasons they chose MIPS and ARM over SPARC. Keep guessing.
        wolfgke 11y ago
        I'm not so sure: Because currently ARM processors are currently sold in a large volume (if not for a technical reason then by momentum) they can be made a cheaper by economy of scale. This does not mean that this has to stay in the future, but currently this seems to be the case.
        nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Now there's a good argument. Here's the real value, though, straight from ARM themselves: the ecosystem. They've built a whole ecosystem of boards, firmware, software, everything around ARM you get when you license their tech. It might be cheaper with economy of scale as well although licensing and royalties have to factor in. I'd default on MIPS there since they can be up to 10x cheaper than ARM. But yeah, a Freescale iMX ARM was like $4 per 100 units last time I looked it up. So, it's mainly the ecosystem with companies and FOSS people wanting to benefit from what's already there instead of improve FOSS HW ecosystems. There's currently, but not indefinitely as you said, a cost advantage for the mass market SOC's as well for PPC, ARM, MIPS, and possibly SuperH.
        11y ago
  - LargoLasskhyfv 11y ago
    There were: http://www.kaltech.co.il/pdf/LEONSPARRAIDProcessor.pdf http://www.kaltech.co.il/pdf/LEONSPARRAIDProcessor.pdf

nickpsecurity 11y ago

Exactly. There's a ton of implementations ranging from free for FPGA's to S-ASIC's from eASIC to embedded CPU's from Gaisler to cloud servers from Oracle to mainframes from Fujitsu & Russia. One can also legally clean-slate a SPARC chip without legal fears. Unlike POWER, ARM, and MIPS. The ISA, its docs, a firmware standard... all of that already open. So, why is it not on the table for... anything in FOSS? Doesn't seem rational. Even a bit hypocritical given vendors like Gaisler and nonprofits like SPARC International have met FOSS halfway or almost wholly. Unlike the others that sue FOSS developers.

CyberDildonics 11y ago
This makes me wonder why we don't see sparc chips in things like routers or other hardware that doesn't require lots of binary compatibility from 3rd party software.
- wolfgke 11y ago
  Because ARM and MIPS chips are a lot more power-efficient.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    Because the chip-makers and chip buyers are using ARM and MIPS in power-efficient SOC's. They could do the same with SPARC. They just didn't for whatever reasons. Far as power efficiency, kristoffer might be able to chime in as it's not in the data sheets for Gaisler. That's suspicious: either the numbers are bad or they leave it off given its meant for customization. Anyway, the Leon4... http://www.gaisler.com/index.php/products/processors/leon4?task=view&id=338 http://www.gaisler.com/index.php/products/processors/leon4?t... ...uses 30,000 gates per core. Same ballpark as ARM and MIPS. Power use should be similar or at least acceptable if comparing ARM, MIPS, and Leon on same ASIC process. They often do rad-hard given it makes it resistant to SEU errors. That takes plenty of extra circuitry. Numbers I have for those, the high end, are 15mW per 1Mhz for Leon3RadHard and for Leon4RadHardQuadCore max was 6watts per one slideshow. I'll take 6watts consumption in a router in exchange for quad-core, IOMMU-enabled, fault-tolerant, open CPU. What about you? Would 6 watts kill it for you?
    - wolfgke 11y ago
      > I'll take 6watts consumption in a router in exchange for quad-core, IOMMU-enabled, fault-tolerant, open CPU. The router vendor surely looks at the cost of the CPU - ARM and MIPS cores are probably much cheaper.
      - nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Remember, I mentioned the SOC vendors as well. They currently license MIPS and ARM. Many choose MIPS due to cheap license. ARM's license, royalties, and restrictions are ridiculously expensive. SPARC has a cost advantage over it. So, once again, it's neither energy nor costs that are reasons they chose MIPS and ARM over SPARC. Keep guessing.
        wolfgke 11y ago
        I'm not so sure: Because currently ARM processors are currently sold in a large volume (if not for a technical reason then by momentum) they can be made a cheaper by economy of scale. This does not mean that this has to stay in the future, but currently this seems to be the case.
        nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Now there's a good argument. Here's the real value, though, straight from ARM themselves: the ecosystem. They've built a whole ecosystem of boards, firmware, software, everything around ARM you get when you license their tech. It might be cheaper with economy of scale as well although licensing and royalties have to factor in. I'd default on MIPS there since they can be up to 10x cheaper than ARM. But yeah, a Freescale iMX ARM was like $4 per 100 units last time I looked it up. So, it's mainly the ecosystem with companies and FOSS people wanting to benefit from what's already there instead of improve FOSS HW ecosystems. There's currently, but not indefinitely as you said, a cost advantage for the mass market SOC's as well for PPC, ARM, MIPS, and possibly SuperH.
        11y ago
- LargoLasskhyfv 11y ago
  There were: http://www.kaltech.co.il/pdf/LEONSPARRAIDProcessor.pdf http://www.kaltech.co.il/pdf/LEONSPARRAIDProcessor.pdf