6 ms·

I've been looking into this recently. Basically, the things mentioned on the text, made free software bios and firmwares impossible, some of the free software

by speeder 11y ago

I've been looking into this recently. Basically, the things mentioned on the text, made free software bios and firmwares impossible, some of the free software projects that exist now are mostly "binary blobs loaders", having more binary blob than free software code running. There is some good analysis on why even Intel can't fix this if they wanted to, unless they stopped shipping some features entirely, their Intel ME system rely on a couple of proprietary third party code, that has on contract with Intel explicit prohibitions of Intel ever letting anyone seeing their source, or the keys needed to sign them. Also, Intel ME can't be really trusted, the code is not really "reverse-engineeringable", and it works as a full second OS of sorts, it even has its own JVM running, if someone somehow decide to inject spy software into it, you will never know, also I assume that the first destructive virus to latch into that stuff, will take the world truly by surprise depending on when it triggers (for example if it spreads silently but triggers the destructive payload on a specific date). Also, these features can be abused to abuse the market itself, for example by intentionally making the hardware underperform, and then sell "superior" hardware that has the only difference some software.

ashitlerferad 11y ago
People have certainly done ME reverse engineering: http://me.bios.io/ http://me.bios.io/
- jjaredsimpson 11y ago
  >there is a little man inside your pc... and his thing is bigger than yours. Your wife knows this. I'm supposed to believe this technology is dangerous. But the advocates are children.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    I think you're supposed to be able to distinguish the message from the medium. Certain styles can definitely make that harder, but ultimately if you can't examine an issue by the facts presented, the failure falls on you, as do the consequences. To be clear, I also think the referenced bit is childish and detracts from the message. I just don't think that should affect your belief in whether it's important.
    - oldmanjay 11y ago
      If a piece is written with a confusingly inappropriate tone for the subject matter, you can't solely blame the reader for being confused since it was the expressed intent of the author to instill that state.
      - kbenson 11y ago
        Well, it's a wiki, so "author" is very loose (and when I checked at the time of my original comment, the change to add some of that verbiage was the most recent change, if still quite old). Ultimately, much of the information on the internet is presented without reference, so tone is the least of our problems. We need to be able to read what is being presented, and decide whether it's important enough to use that we should verify it. In this case, the tone shifts, but the message is along the same lines (the ME is your adversary), if very crudely done. I do think you have a point though. It's not entirely up to the reader, there is a minimum threshold of clearly communicating facts that needs to be met by the author. But I don't think it's safe to say something that's unclear in tone means it was the expressed intent of the author to cause confusion. Humor can add quite a bit to an argument if done right, as humor often has the ability to cut through some of our preconceptions. Humor done wrong might be confusing, but that could very well be unintentional.
  - jjbiotech 11y ago
    Yeah, screw the author for making a joke on the internet!
- acqq 11y ago
  It seems there are just some basic begining steps on the site. It's far from the fully dissaembled ME. So it seems we still don't even know what's inside of ME.
- Animats 11y ago
  They don't seem to have gotten very far, and the last update seems to be four years ago.
DenisM 11y ago
Apple will be sitting pretty with their own CPU, heh? At least in the iOS devices, but who knowns what the (near) future brings to the Mac line.
- muricula 11y ago
  I doubt it. The powerpc to Intel switch was really painful because the desktop platform has the perpetual ball and chain of backward compatability. I doubt Apple would try to beat Intel at their own high performance game anyway.
  - ricardobeat 11y ago
    Judging by the specs on their current lineup, it looks like Apple already gave up on performance anyway.
    - wtallis 11y ago
      Aside from the stale Mac Pro, which current Macs do you think are indicative of Apple giving up on performance?
      - occamrazor 11y ago
        The new macbook 12" is thinner and lighter than the older MBA, but without significant performance improvements.
        Cshelton 11y ago
        The macbooks were never supposed to be a "power" machine. The whole purpose was a very portable, long batter life laptop. And it dose that very very well. I would not call that giving up on performance...they just designed something for a purpose and it fits that purpose well.
        5ilv3r 11y ago
        Dude it has a 5 watt processor and a mobo the size of a raspi. I don't think their featherweight offering is appropriate to enter in the performance fight.
andrewstuart2 11y ago
I'd think it would be easier and more profitable (more convenient for "customers" than buying new hardware) to sell the "speed unlock" solution, much like cryptolocker does with your personal data.
- anon4 11y ago
  And we'll finally be able to download more RAM.
xenadu02 11y ago
Sounds like rich, fertile ground for the NSA, KGB, and other state agencies. They could be deploying such code right now and I'm not sure we would know it.
- qubex 11y ago
  The KGB no longer exists. It was superseded by the FSB in 1995.
  - praptak 11y ago
    Clever of them to make the world think they don't exist anymore! Only surpassed by the Czech navy... but I better not speak of such topics.
    - ElijahLynn 11y ago
      If a brand develops a bad name, they just get a new name.
  - pc2g4d 11y ago
    Not entirely---it's still around in Belarus. And Transnistria and South Ossetia, too, though those may be more of imitators than actual remnants of the original.
ino 11y ago
Also planned obsolescence by gradually slowing the machine over time.
- Qwertious 11y ago
  That would be far too provable and suspicious, since it'd have to be done 24/7 and would rule out the heisenbug route. If you were to do such a thing, you'd do it by making the machine overclock itself too much occasionally (after the 'artificial use-by date' has passed, thereby incurring physical damage at random intervals. Although really, it would be easy to do without blob, too, if you're doing the design of the physical chip.
Retr0spectrum 11y ago
Source on the JVM claims?
- albinofrenchy 11y ago
  I'd like to see that source too. On something this low level, running a JVM seems both useless and prohibitively expensive.
  - gfody 11y ago
    there are some tiny jvms out there - uJ meant for microcontrollers gives a functional jvm in 60kb
  - jestar_jokin 11y ago
    Java has precedent for running on low-performing devices; see J2ME[0], which ran on a whole bunch of old mobile phones, and Java Card[1], which ran on smart cards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Platform,_Micro_Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Platform,_Micro_Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card
- vancan1ty 11y ago
  Taken from this link: https://libreboot.org/faq/ https://libreboot.org/faq/ "The ME firmware is compressed and consists of modules that are listed in the manifest along with secure cryptographic hashes of their contents. One module is the operating system kernel, which is based on a proprietary real-time operating system (RTOS) kernel called "ThreadX". The developer, Express Logic, sells licenses and source code for ThreadX. Customers such as Intel are forbidden from disclosing or sublicensing the ThreadX source code. Another module is the Dynamic Application Loader (DAL), which consists of a Java virtual machine and set of preinstalled Java classes for cryptography, secure storage, etc. The DAL module can load and execute additional ME modules from the PC's HDD or SSD. The ME firmware also includes a number of native application modules within its flash memory space, including Intel Active Management Technology (AMT), an implementation of a Trusted Platform Module (TPM), Intel Boot Guard, and audio and video DRM systems."

by speeder 11y ago

ashitlerferad 11y ago

People have certainly done ME reverse engineering: http://me.bios.io/ http://me.bios.io/

jjaredsimpson 11y ago
>there is a little man inside your pc... and his thing is bigger than yours. Your wife knows this. I'm supposed to believe this technology is dangerous. But the advocates are children.
- kbenson 11y ago
  I think you're supposed to be able to distinguish the message from the medium. Certain styles can definitely make that harder, but ultimately if you can't examine an issue by the facts presented, the failure falls on you, as do the consequences. To be clear, I also think the referenced bit is childish and detracts from the message. I just don't think that should affect your belief in whether it's important.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    If a piece is written with a confusingly inappropriate tone for the subject matter, you can't solely blame the reader for being confused since it was the expressed intent of the author to instill that state.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      Well, it's a wiki, so "author" is very loose (and when I checked at the time of my original comment, the change to add some of that verbiage was the most recent change, if still quite old). Ultimately, much of the information on the internet is presented without reference, so tone is the least of our problems. We need to be able to read what is being presented, and decide whether it's important enough to use that we should verify it. In this case, the tone shifts, but the message is along the same lines (the ME is your adversary), if very crudely done. I do think you have a point though. It's not entirely up to the reader, there is a minimum threshold of clearly communicating facts that needs to be met by the author. But I don't think it's safe to say something that's unclear in tone means it was the expressed intent of the author to cause confusion. Humor can add quite a bit to an argument if done right, as humor often has the ability to cut through some of our preconceptions. Humor done wrong might be confusing, but that could very well be unintentional.
- jjbiotech 11y ago
  Yeah, screw the author for making a joke on the internet!
acqq 11y ago
It seems there are just some basic begining steps on the site. It's far from the fully dissaembled ME. So it seems we still don't even know what's inside of ME.
Animats 11y ago
They don't seem to have gotten very far, and the last update seems to be four years ago.

DenisM 11y ago

Apple will be sitting pretty with their own CPU, heh? At least in the iOS devices, but who knowns what the (near) future brings to the Mac line.

muricula 11y ago
I doubt it. The powerpc to Intel switch was really painful because the desktop platform has the perpetual ball and chain of backward compatability. I doubt Apple would try to beat Intel at their own high performance game anyway.
- ricardobeat 11y ago
  Judging by the specs on their current lineup, it looks like Apple already gave up on performance anyway.
  - wtallis 11y ago
    Aside from the stale Mac Pro, which current Macs do you think are indicative of Apple giving up on performance?
    - occamrazor 11y ago
      The new macbook 12" is thinner and lighter than the older MBA, but without significant performance improvements.
      - Cshelton 11y ago
        The macbooks were never supposed to be a "power" machine. The whole purpose was a very portable, long batter life laptop. And it dose that very very well. I would not call that giving up on performance...they just designed something for a purpose and it fits that purpose well.
      - 5ilv3r 11y ago
        Dude it has a 5 watt processor and a mobo the size of a raspi. I don't think their featherweight offering is appropriate to enter in the performance fight.

andrewstuart2 11y ago

I'd think it would be easier and more profitable (more convenient for "customers" than buying new hardware) to sell the "speed unlock" solution, much like cryptolocker does with your personal data.

anon4 11y ago
And we'll finally be able to download more RAM.

xenadu02 11y ago

Sounds like rich, fertile ground for the NSA, KGB, and other state agencies. They could be deploying such code right now and I'm not sure we would know it.

qubex 11y ago
The KGB no longer exists. It was superseded by the FSB in 1995.
- praptak 11y ago
  Clever of them to make the world think they don't exist anymore! Only surpassed by the Czech navy... but I better not speak of such topics.
  - ElijahLynn 11y ago
    If a brand develops a bad name, they just get a new name.
- pc2g4d 11y ago
  Not entirely---it's still around in Belarus. And Transnistria and South Ossetia, too, though those may be more of imitators than actual remnants of the original.

ino 11y ago

Also planned obsolescence by gradually slowing the machine over time.

Qwertious 11y ago
That would be far too provable and suspicious, since it'd have to be done 24/7 and would rule out the heisenbug route. If you were to do such a thing, you'd do it by making the machine overclock itself too much occasionally (after the 'artificial use-by date' has passed, thereby incurring physical damage at random intervals. Although really, it would be easy to do without blob, too, if you're doing the design of the physical chip.

Retr0spectrum 11y ago

Source on the JVM claims?

albinofrenchy 11y ago
I'd like to see that source too. On something this low level, running a JVM seems both useless and prohibitively expensive.
- gfody 11y ago
  there are some tiny jvms out there - uJ meant for microcontrollers gives a functional jvm in 60kb
- jestar_jokin 11y ago
  Java has precedent for running on low-performing devices; see J2ME[0], which ran on a whole bunch of old mobile phones, and Java Card[1], which ran on smart cards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Platform,_Micro_Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Platform,_Micro_Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card
vancan1ty 11y ago
Taken from this link: https://libreboot.org/faq/ https://libreboot.org/faq/ "The ME firmware is compressed and consists of modules that are listed in the manifest along with secure cryptographic hashes of their contents. One module is the operating system kernel, which is based on a proprietary real-time operating system (RTOS) kernel called "ThreadX". The developer, Express Logic, sells licenses and source code for ThreadX. Customers such as Intel are forbidden from disclosing or sublicensing the ThreadX source code. Another module is the Dynamic Application Loader (DAL), which consists of a Java virtual machine and set of preinstalled Java classes for cryptography, secure storage, etc. The DAL module can load and execute additional ME modules from the PC's HDD or SSD. The ME firmware also includes a number of native application modules within its flash memory space, including Intel Active Management Technology (AMT), an implementation of a Trusted Platform Module (TPM), Intel Boot Guard, and audio and video DRM systems."