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The difference is that those companies were/are exploiting various loopholes in laws across many countries to avoid paying the tax they ordinarily would. Immora

The difference is that those companies were/are exploiting various loopholes in laws across many countries to avoid paying the tax they ordinarily would. Immoral? Sure. Illegal? No. I'm no tax professional, but it sounds like this leak is about a large number of wealthy people actively evading tax, by hiding their assets/source of income and other shady things. This is very illegal, and if true, I imagine some of these people can and will be prosecuted for it. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't.

aantix 11y ago
Not sure I'm seeing a difference..
- iand 11y ago
  When you put your money into a structured pension plan for your retirement then it's tax avoidance since you are avoiding paying the tax you normally would if you invested it in some other way. Tax evasion is where you break the law by hiding money that should be taxed. Quite a big difference.
  - fizzbatter 11y ago
    I think a lot of people (myself included) tend to focus on the "how" rather than the "why". Presumably, big corporations are not only avoiding tax via legal means, but they are creating these legal means to avoid tax. Why do it illegally, when you can bribe/buy politicians, who then pass laws and allow you to avoid all the tax you want. It could be 100% legal (not bribery specifically, but campaign financing for example), but i don't think most people are really okay with it. I'm perfectly okay with someone finding a legal loophole, i am not okay with them blocking said loophole, or introducing new ones.
    - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
      This is, notoriously, how tax avoidance works in the UK. There's a revolving door between the big accountancy firms that work out tax avoidance schemes, HMRC, which is the UK's IRS, and policy desk's in the Treasury, which define tax policy. HMRC has been notoriously lax in enforcing and collecting tax nominally owed by the largest corporations - most recently Google, which "negotiated" a payment of £130m in back taxes due on £4.6bn in sales. The details of the "negotiation" have been kept confidential, so we have no way of knowing how they were calculated.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  Haven't read much about this, but the two potential scenarios (for businesses or individuals) are: 1) Legal: Take advantage of different national/state tax laws, exemptions, etc. and conduct business within those territories or have money move through them in a way that you minimize your tax obligation. 2) Illegal: Just lie about what money you have. Hiding it in offshore accounts and funneling it through intermediary channels when you want to make use of it.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  You don't see a difference in whether or not you're breaking the law? Even if you believe that the law is disconnected from morality (not totally true, but more true than I would like), breaking the law still means that people with guns can put you in prison. There's a real fundamental difference between having people look down at you as a conniving scoundrel who took advantage of the law, and being behind bars.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    Exactly. It's actually worrying to see so many people who express opinions like "I know it's not illegal but I don't like what you do so you should go to prison, or be thrown out of country, or stripped of assets".
wnevets 11y ago
lying on tax forms is illegal.
stult 11y ago
>Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't. I am a tax professional and this is pretty much the motto of the profession. ;) Anyway, I don't think the significant thrust of this story pertains to tax avoidance or evasion. There are some relatively minor figures implicated by the usual offshore tax shenanigans, but the really important news is the evidence of fraud, money laundering, and corruption at the highest levels of government, business, sports, and society across the globe. This shit makes tax evasion look like shoplifting. We all may have suspected Putin of bribery and using illicit financial assets to fund his network of cronies, but now we have direct proof. What's more, we can now see how his activities (and those of many other powerful figures across the world) contribute to a massive shadow financial system which operates utterly unbound by moral or legal principles, enabling money laundering, human trafficking, drug and arms dealing, corruption in sports, corruption in politics, and just about every other shitty, awful, poisonous human activity you can imagine. This system is monumental in scale and the evil it sustains unfathomable in scope. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, though, or at least we had better hope so.
- lfjmfkekdk 11y ago
  But even the Panama Papers report said that they're not implying (or suggesting) the entities listed are doing anything illegal. The entities listed could very well have legitimate uses for offshore companies like Google, Apple, Oracle, HP and Microsoft have. "There are legitimate uses for offshore companies, foundations and trusts. We do not intend to suggest or imply that any persons, companies or other entities included in the ICIJ Power Players interactive application have broken the law or otherwise acted improperly."[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_named_in_the_Panama_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_named_in_the_Pa...
- powertower 11y ago
  > We all may have suspected Putin of bribery and using illicit financial assets to fund his network of cronies, but now we have direct proof. Wild speculation and story spinning is not proof of anything - except of the complicity that bias media has in forming public opinion.
ThomPete 11y ago
The problem is that what is legal is being lobbied by those who have the money to manipulate the law. So the real scandal is what's legal not what's illegal.

aantix 11y ago

Not sure I'm seeing a difference..

iand 11y ago
When you put your money into a structured pension plan for your retirement then it's tax avoidance since you are avoiding paying the tax you normally would if you invested it in some other way. Tax evasion is where you break the law by hiding money that should be taxed. Quite a big difference.
- fizzbatter 11y ago
  I think a lot of people (myself included) tend to focus on the "how" rather than the "why". Presumably, big corporations are not only avoiding tax via legal means, but they are creating these legal means to avoid tax. Why do it illegally, when you can bribe/buy politicians, who then pass laws and allow you to avoid all the tax you want. It could be 100% legal (not bribery specifically, but campaign financing for example), but i don't think most people are really okay with it. I'm perfectly okay with someone finding a legal loophole, i am not okay with them blocking said loophole, or introducing new ones.
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    This is, notoriously, how tax avoidance works in the UK. There's a revolving door between the big accountancy firms that work out tax avoidance schemes, HMRC, which is the UK's IRS, and policy desk's in the Treasury, which define tax policy. HMRC has been notoriously lax in enforcing and collecting tax nominally owed by the largest corporations - most recently Google, which "negotiated" a payment of £130m in back taxes due on £4.6bn in sales. The details of the "negotiation" have been kept confidential, so we have no way of knowing how they were calculated.
Jtsummers 11y ago
Haven't read much about this, but the two potential scenarios (for businesses or individuals) are: 1) Legal: Take advantage of different national/state tax laws, exemptions, etc. and conduct business within those territories or have money move through them in a way that you minimize your tax obligation. 2) Illegal: Just lie about what money you have. Hiding it in offshore accounts and funneling it through intermediary channels when you want to make use of it.
AnimalMuppet 11y ago
You don't see a difference in whether or not you're breaking the law? Even if you believe that the law is disconnected from morality (not totally true, but more true than I would like), breaking the law still means that people with guns can put you in prison. There's a real fundamental difference between having people look down at you as a conniving scoundrel who took advantage of the law, and being behind bars.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  Exactly. It's actually worrying to see so many people who express opinions like "I know it's not illegal but I don't like what you do so you should go to prison, or be thrown out of country, or stripped of assets".

wnevets 11y ago

lying on tax forms is illegal.

stult 11y ago

>Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't. I am a tax professional and this is pretty much the motto of the profession. ;) Anyway, I don't think the significant thrust of this story pertains to tax avoidance or evasion. There are some relatively minor figures implicated by the usual offshore tax shenanigans, but the really important news is the evidence of fraud, money laundering, and corruption at the highest levels of government, business, sports, and society across the globe. This shit makes tax evasion look like shoplifting. We all may have suspected Putin of bribery and using illicit financial assets to fund his network of cronies, but now we have direct proof. What's more, we can now see how his activities (and those of many other powerful figures across the world) contribute to a massive shadow financial system which operates utterly unbound by moral or legal principles, enabling money laundering, human trafficking, drug and arms dealing, corruption in sports, corruption in politics, and just about every other shitty, awful, poisonous human activity you can imagine. This system is monumental in scale and the evil it sustains unfathomable in scope. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, though, or at least we had better hope so.

lfjmfkekdk 11y ago
But even the Panama Papers report said that they're not implying (or suggesting) the entities listed are doing anything illegal. The entities listed could very well have legitimate uses for offshore companies like Google, Apple, Oracle, HP and Microsoft have. "There are legitimate uses for offshore companies, foundations and trusts. We do not intend to suggest or imply that any persons, companies or other entities included in the ICIJ Power Players interactive application have broken the law or otherwise acted improperly."[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_named_in_the_Panama_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_named_in_the_Pa...
powertower 11y ago
> We all may have suspected Putin of bribery and using illicit financial assets to fund his network of cronies, but now we have direct proof. Wild speculation and story spinning is not proof of anything - except of the complicity that bias media has in forming public opinion.

ThomPete 11y ago

The problem is that what is legal is being lobbied by those who have the money to manipulate the law. So the real scandal is what's legal not what's illegal.