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As mentioned by another poster (who's comment is now dead?) How is this different than when Apple, Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, HP and Google "hide" their money o

As mentioned by another poster (who's comment is now dead?) How is this different than when Apple, Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, HP and Google "hide" their money offshore in places like Ireland and the Cayman Islands, which helps them avoid repatriating their profits overseas and paying taxes on them? It isn't. The point of this is that Putin is doing it.

cm2187 11y ago
I don't think these companies "hide" any money there. I am sure they are reported in their financial statements. The fact that they are legally out of reach of the US IRS doesn't mean it is hidden.
zepto 11y ago
There is no similarity at all. These corporations don't hide anything, although they do exploit tax loopholes.
- return0 11y ago
  What are the people in the list hiding (that corporations don't)?
  - gnufied 11y ago
    lets not be naive. A head of state can't have $2 billion in offshore saving without illegally sourcing some of that money. So for corporations, even though they are too evading tax, their sources of income is known. For many powerful individuals sources of income ins't known (and probably illegal)
    - Ntrails 11y ago
      > A head of state can't have $2 billion in offshore saving without illegally sourcing some of that money Sure you say that now, but when President Trump comes to power is it still true? (I have no clue how much he is actually worth, just countering that heads of state can have significant legitimate private wealth)
      - azernik 11y ago
        Sure, ones that were working on legitimate economic activity before taking office. But if someone comes into the presidency as a lifelong intelligence officer with no massive inheritance, and after 15 years in office is a multi-billionaire, it's pretty clear what's going on.
    - tim333 11y ago
      The legality can be a grey area. Say Putin has the state bank loan his company $2bn, the company invests in stocks which double and then sells them and pays back the loan, which law has he broken?
      - pixl97 11y ago
        In the US he would have broken many laws doing just that, as that kind of behaviors causes depressions. I have no idea what Russian laws are on the topic. If people discover he is doing something like that it would cause a drop in the stock market, it is extremely risky behavior.
nicktelford 11y ago
The difference is that those companies were/are exploiting various loopholes in laws across many countries to avoid paying the tax they ordinarily would. Immoral? Sure. Illegal? No. I'm no tax professional, but it sounds like this leak is about a large number of wealthy people actively evading tax, by hiding their assets/source of income and other shady things. This is very illegal, and if true, I imagine some of these people can and will be prosecuted for it. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't.
- aantix 11y ago
  Not sure I'm seeing a difference..
  - iand 11y ago
    When you put your money into a structured pension plan for your retirement then it's tax avoidance since you are avoiding paying the tax you normally would if you invested it in some other way. Tax evasion is where you break the law by hiding money that should be taxed. Quite a big difference.
    - fizzbatter 11y ago
      I think a lot of people (myself included) tend to focus on the "how" rather than the "why". Presumably, big corporations are not only avoiding tax via legal means, but they are creating these legal means to avoid tax. Why do it illegally, when you can bribe/buy politicians, who then pass laws and allow you to avoid all the tax you want. It could be 100% legal (not bribery specifically, but campaign financing for example), but i don't think most people are really okay with it. I'm perfectly okay with someone finding a legal loophole, i am not okay with them blocking said loophole, or introducing new ones.
      - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
        This is, notoriously, how tax avoidance works in the UK. There's a revolving door between the big accountancy firms that work out tax avoidance schemes, HMRC, which is the UK's IRS, and policy desk's in the Treasury, which define tax policy. HMRC has been notoriously lax in enforcing and collecting tax nominally owed by the largest corporations - most recently Google, which "negotiated" a payment of £130m in back taxes due on £4.6bn in sales. The details of the "negotiation" have been kept confidential, so we have no way of knowing how they were calculated.
maus42 11y ago
> The point of this is that Putin is doing it. In addition Icelandic PM and Cameron's late father.
sievebrain 11y ago
Is he ... Putin seems rather clever. The Guardian suggests he isn't named in this leak anywhere. Indeed he appears to have no wealth on paper at all. Apparently the most likely explanation is that by enriching his friends, he wins their loyalty, and they will then buy him whatever he wants. But unfortunately having loyal and rich friends is not illegal nor tax evasion. I don't see how Putin would go down for this even if he lived in the west.
- Cypher 11y ago
  It's unlikely any power player in the west will go down for this either. I suspect its more of a play to whip Europe up into a frenzy.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
zavi 11y ago
The difference is absence of evidence of illegal activity in the case of corporations.
Cypher 11y ago
Come on, play along. If the masses don't revolt and overthrow Putin we're going to have to fight WW3. This is our best shot to save millions of lives.
_Codemonkeyism 11y ago
The Guardian also had articles about companies that "hide" their money in Ireland, Google for "site:guardian.co.uk double dutch sandwich" or Double Irish http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+double+dutch+sandwich http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+double+dutch+sand... So to paraphrase your point: "It isn't. The point of this is that Apple|Cisco|... is doing it."

cm2187 11y ago

I don't think these companies "hide" any money there. I am sure they are reported in their financial statements. The fact that they are legally out of reach of the US IRS doesn't mean it is hidden.

zepto 11y ago

There is no similarity at all. These corporations don't hide anything, although they do exploit tax loopholes.

return0 11y ago
What are the people in the list hiding (that corporations don't)?
- gnufied 11y ago
  lets not be naive. A head of state can't have $2 billion in offshore saving without illegally sourcing some of that money. So for corporations, even though they are too evading tax, their sources of income is known. For many powerful individuals sources of income ins't known (and probably illegal)
  - Ntrails 11y ago
    > A head of state can't have $2 billion in offshore saving without illegally sourcing some of that money Sure you say that now, but when President Trump comes to power is it still true? (I have no clue how much he is actually worth, just countering that heads of state can have significant legitimate private wealth)
    - azernik 11y ago
      Sure, ones that were working on legitimate economic activity before taking office. But if someone comes into the presidency as a lifelong intelligence officer with no massive inheritance, and after 15 years in office is a multi-billionaire, it's pretty clear what's going on.
  - tim333 11y ago
    The legality can be a grey area. Say Putin has the state bank loan his company $2bn, the company invests in stocks which double and then sells them and pays back the loan, which law has he broken?
    - pixl97 11y ago
      In the US he would have broken many laws doing just that, as that kind of behaviors causes depressions. I have no idea what Russian laws are on the topic. If people discover he is doing something like that it would cause a drop in the stock market, it is extremely risky behavior.

nicktelford 11y ago

The difference is that those companies were/are exploiting various loopholes in laws across many countries to avoid paying the tax they ordinarily would. Immoral? Sure. Illegal? No. I'm no tax professional, but it sounds like this leak is about a large number of wealthy people actively evading tax, by hiding their assets/source of income and other shady things. This is very illegal, and if true, I imagine some of these people can and will be prosecuted for it. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't.

aantix 11y ago
Not sure I'm seeing a difference..
- iand 11y ago
  When you put your money into a structured pension plan for your retirement then it's tax avoidance since you are avoiding paying the tax you normally would if you invested it in some other way. Tax evasion is where you break the law by hiding money that should be taxed. Quite a big difference.
  - fizzbatter 11y ago
    I think a lot of people (myself included) tend to focus on the "how" rather than the "why". Presumably, big corporations are not only avoiding tax via legal means, but they are creating these legal means to avoid tax. Why do it illegally, when you can bribe/buy politicians, who then pass laws and allow you to avoid all the tax you want. It could be 100% legal (not bribery specifically, but campaign financing for example), but i don't think most people are really okay with it. I'm perfectly okay with someone finding a legal loophole, i am not okay with them blocking said loophole, or introducing new ones.
    - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
      This is, notoriously, how tax avoidance works in the UK. There's a revolving door between the big accountancy firms that work out tax avoidance schemes, HMRC, which is the UK's IRS, and policy desk's in the Treasury, which define tax policy. HMRC has been notoriously lax in enforcing and collecting tax nominally owed by the largest corporations - most recently Google, which "negotiated" a payment of £130m in back taxes due on £4.6bn in sales. The details of the "negotiation" have been kept confidential, so we have no way of knowing how they were calculated.

maus42 11y ago

> The point of this is that Putin is doing it. In addition Icelandic PM and Cameron's late father.

sievebrain 11y ago

Is he ... Putin seems rather clever. The Guardian suggests he isn't named in this leak anywhere. Indeed he appears to have no wealth on paper at all. Apparently the most likely explanation is that by enriching his friends, he wins their loyalty, and they will then buy him whatever he wants. But unfortunately having loyal and rich friends is not illegal nor tax evasion. I don't see how Putin would go down for this even if he lived in the west.

Cypher 11y ago
It's unlikely any power player in the west will go down for this either. I suspect its more of a play to whip Europe up into a frenzy.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

zavi 11y ago

The difference is absence of evidence of illegal activity in the case of corporations.

Cypher 11y ago

Come on, play along. If the masses don't revolt and overthrow Putin we're going to have to fight WW3. This is our best shot to save millions of lives.

_Codemonkeyism 11y ago

The Guardian also had articles about companies that "hide" their money in Ireland, Google for "site:guardian.co.uk double dutch sandwich" or Double Irish http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+double+dutch+sandwich http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+double+dutch+sand... So to paraphrase your point: "It isn't. The point of this is that Apple|Cisco|... is doing it."