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I have an electric car, a leaf. I also have solar power from Solar City. I live in sunny MA, where in the winter we average 15kWh generated to the summer we av

by tsmarsh 11y ago

I have an electric car, a leaf. I also have solar power from Solar City. I live in sunny MA, where in the winter we average 15kWh generated to the summer we average 50kWh. My commute is 60 miles per day which is around 6-8kW depending in traffic and weather. Also, my local power is a mixture of nuclear and wind. So. Can we please stop rolling coal burning power plants into the electric car equation as if it is universally applicable. The car was affordable: $12k second hand. The solar was $0 down and half the national grid per kW. My commute is at the edge of viable for a first gen electric car (really looking forward to the 200mile range of 2nd gen). I do the vast majority of my charging is at home. My only issue is that the current system (sic) takes DC power converts to to AC only rectify it back to DC in the car. There is still a need for charging stations, but for rare 100 mile journeys. Drive 80 miles charge for 20 minutes, drive 80 miles. 2nd gen it's 160 miles, charge for 40 minutes. We have family in Western MA, which is 150 miles away. With a 200 mile range we'd do it in a single charge and recharge at their house. The use of a charging station is really rare, not part of the routine of ownership, like it is with ICE. We don't have the infrastructure? We don't need the infrastructure. You can run an electric car almost entirely from energy reclaimed from the environment around your house. It will even store it for you in those handy, replaceable lion batteries it has, solving some of renewable energies gnarlier problems. Whilst I understand that electric cars don't work well for people who travel more than 100 miles without a 20 minute break, that number is about to shift to 200miles... and that is virtually nobody. The infrastructure problems are solved by local generation (either municipal renewables or home solar). The recharging problem, even at 100mile range isn't a problem, you just charge it at the end of your journey.

makomk 11y ago
If you commute, I assume your car isn't at home during the daytime on weekdays and so can't actually use most of the energy you generate for charging. How much of the 6-8kW of charging you do actually comes from your solar panels, and how much comes from the grid and is simply subsidized by your power provider being forced to buy your power at retail prices?
- tsmarsh 11y ago
  Who's to say that the power I generate during the day isn't being used to charge my car. The grid is also a pretty useful battery. It really doesn't take that long to charge the car after the commute. In winter, chances are that it's from municipal power, summer it's probably from my solar. Either way I'm offsetting my car use with clean, local power.
coldcode 11y ago
I live in an apartment there is no way to plug in a car or build a solar panel. Basically without a means of owning an outlet no plugin hybrid is possible.
- Roboprog 11y ago
  yep. These are a great fit for some people, and not an option at all for others. I think the country/world can accommodate BOTH types of car, ICE and EV. And "none" is also a good choice, in some areas.
- tsmarsh 11y ago
  This is a much easier problem to solve. You can put solar wind on apartments and you can run outlets to the street. It just involves cooperation and a little group altruism. So... OK I see your point. It could be done, with right incentives.
- erikpukinskis 11y ago
  While this is a problem for you, it's not a problem for the market at large. As electric cars become more popular, landlords will offer outlets.
  - chadgeidel 11y ago
    Anecdotal, of course. And I'm bitter because I wanted to get an EV. :-D I live in a "green" (LEED certified at some level) high-end apartment complex built in 2014 just south of downtown Denver, CO. There are zero electric car charging stations in the gated, enclosed garage. If my apartment complex didn't have the foresight to build at least a few charging stations I can't imagine the hope of retrofitting on some 10, 20, or 30 year old building. Nevermind the vast number of apartment complexes that simply don't have the garage space.
pbo 11y ago
Do you have an estimate of the efficiency of the DC -> AC -> DC charging system?
ThinkBeat 11y ago
When you are looking at electric vehicles globally or even nationally you must take the power plants into the equations. Whilst you may get electricity from renewable sources, and that is good for you, when you look at the country as a whole, renewable sources make up a small percentage of the total electricity produced.
- tsmarsh 11y ago
  It's really only cities that have a generation problem, and it's mostly American cities that combine city living with car ownership. The electric cars problems are mostly magnified by American urbanites. Boston is no exception. It might help if zip cars were predominantly EV, although my urbite friends have mostly replaced Zip with Uber
- emilecantin 11y ago
  I think that electricity generation, while a perfectly valid concern, is a completely separate issue, and I think that it's better debated separately. Why? As the grand-parent post mentioned, it's definitely not applicable everywhere, and transportation is the sector where we are the most closely tied to petroleum as an energy source. Just decoupling that, even if there aren't any gains for the environment in gas-powered regions, is a win in my book. Once we're decoupled, we can start looking at these problematic power plants, and replacing them with greener alternatives. Also, in regions like Canada, we're all mostly hydro-powered anyway, so the gain would be immediate. Even then, a gas power plant would probably pollute way less than the equivalent fleet of cars, due to the fact that we're always running our engines cold in the winter, which pollutes a lot more than an engine running at the proper temperature.
hundchenkatze 11y ago
> So. Can we please stop rolling coal burning power plants into the electric car equation as if it is universally applicable. Unfortunately most of US citizens power comes from non-renewable energy sources. So, I think rolling power plants into the electric car equation is more applicable than not. "In 2015, renewable energy sources accounted for about 10% of total U.S. energy consumption and about 13% of electricity generation" [0] [0] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=92&t=4 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=92&t=4
xadhominemx 11y ago
Electricity is fungible. If you weren't charging a car, you'd be pumping the electricity back into the grid and reducing the need to burn coal to supply the grid.

by tsmarsh 11y ago

makomk 11y ago

If you commute, I assume your car isn't at home during the daytime on weekdays and so can't actually use most of the energy you generate for charging. How much of the 6-8kW of charging you do actually comes from your solar panels, and how much comes from the grid and is simply subsidized by your power provider being forced to buy your power at retail prices?

tsmarsh 11y ago
Who's to say that the power I generate during the day isn't being used to charge my car. The grid is also a pretty useful battery. It really doesn't take that long to charge the car after the commute. In winter, chances are that it's from municipal power, summer it's probably from my solar. Either way I'm offsetting my car use with clean, local power.

coldcode 11y ago

I live in an apartment there is no way to plug in a car or build a solar panel. Basically without a means of owning an outlet no plugin hybrid is possible.

Roboprog 11y ago
yep. These are a great fit for some people, and not an option at all for others. I think the country/world can accommodate BOTH types of car, ICE and EV. And "none" is also a good choice, in some areas.
tsmarsh 11y ago
This is a much easier problem to solve. You can put solar wind on apartments and you can run outlets to the street. It just involves cooperation and a little group altruism. So... OK I see your point. It could be done, with right incentives.
erikpukinskis 11y ago
While this is a problem for you, it's not a problem for the market at large. As electric cars become more popular, landlords will offer outlets.
- chadgeidel 11y ago
  Anecdotal, of course. And I'm bitter because I wanted to get an EV. :-D I live in a "green" (LEED certified at some level) high-end apartment complex built in 2014 just south of downtown Denver, CO. There are zero electric car charging stations in the gated, enclosed garage. If my apartment complex didn't have the foresight to build at least a few charging stations I can't imagine the hope of retrofitting on some 10, 20, or 30 year old building. Nevermind the vast number of apartment complexes that simply don't have the garage space.

pbo 11y ago

Do you have an estimate of the efficiency of the DC -> AC -> DC charging system?

ThinkBeat 11y ago

When you are looking at electric vehicles globally or even nationally you must take the power plants into the equations. Whilst you may get electricity from renewable sources, and that is good for you, when you look at the country as a whole, renewable sources make up a small percentage of the total electricity produced.

tsmarsh 11y ago
It's really only cities that have a generation problem, and it's mostly American cities that combine city living with car ownership. The electric cars problems are mostly magnified by American urbanites. Boston is no exception. It might help if zip cars were predominantly EV, although my urbite friends have mostly replaced Zip with Uber
emilecantin 11y ago
I think that electricity generation, while a perfectly valid concern, is a completely separate issue, and I think that it's better debated separately. Why? As the grand-parent post mentioned, it's definitely not applicable everywhere, and transportation is the sector where we are the most closely tied to petroleum as an energy source. Just decoupling that, even if there aren't any gains for the environment in gas-powered regions, is a win in my book. Once we're decoupled, we can start looking at these problematic power plants, and replacing them with greener alternatives. Also, in regions like Canada, we're all mostly hydro-powered anyway, so the gain would be immediate. Even then, a gas power plant would probably pollute way less than the equivalent fleet of cars, due to the fact that we're always running our engines cold in the winter, which pollutes a lot more than an engine running at the proper temperature.

hundchenkatze 11y ago

> So. Can we please stop rolling coal burning power plants into the electric car equation as if it is universally applicable. Unfortunately most of US citizens power comes from non-renewable energy sources. So, I think rolling power plants into the electric car equation is more applicable than not. "In 2015, renewable energy sources accounted for about 10% of total U.S. energy consumption and about 13% of electricity generation" [0] [0] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=92&t=4 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=92&t=4

xadhominemx 11y ago

Electricity is fungible. If you weren't charging a car, you'd be pumping the electricity back into the grid and reducing the need to burn coal to supply the grid.