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I have to disagree with many points in that article. My point of reference is the German grid, so it might be different in the US. - switching all cars to elec

by _ph_ 11y ago

I have to disagree with many points in that article. My point of reference is the German grid, so it might be different in the US. - switching all cars to electrical would increase the total electricity consumption by 20%, while currently we export about 10% of our production. All the changes are going to happen over a timeframe of more than 20 years, because that is how long it takes to replace the cars at minimum, a long time to make any necessary adjustments to the grid. - in general, electrical cars should be rather beneficial to the grid. There is no reason to charge them at dinner time. Electrical cars have timers and current control, it is very easy to have them charge at times where the grid is underloaded. Many power companies have rebates at night anyway to get rid of excess electricity. (Assuming a car with a reasonably sized battery, like the Model 3) - long term, the speed of charging could be controlled remotely by the power company (for a rebate) so they could use this further to stabilize the grid. - The Model X is available with a tow hitch, and it seems that the Model 3 might have one too (Elon tweeted something to that extend) - Most Tesla owners seem to be happy with the combination of range and the Supercharger network, and the range is going to improve by about 5% per year.

ZeroGravitas 11y ago
The concept of getting paid to allow grid controlled charging of your vehicle is available today: http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/juicebox#rebates http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/juicebox#rebates For areas without the rebates in place they can track the carbon content of your local grid and charge only when wind turbines are producing strongly.
zodPod 11y ago
> No reason to charge them at dinner time. Timers and current control & remotely adjusting by power company My main issue is with your notion that the cars should, somehow, be limited to only charging at certain times. The issue becomes, "OMG I CUT OFF MY FINGER". "Oh, sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh, I want to go to Walmart and grab some chips." "Sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh man! I forgot about a meeting I had with my realtor!" "Sorry, cars not charged yet" > "There's no reason to recharge them at dinner time." The issue is that this could be a problem now. Instead of me just being able to put fuel in my car whenever, now I have to be like "Oh yeah, it's dinner time and I'm home. Can't recharge my car yet!" AND, when everyone has an electric car, it will very quickly become like a busy cable network in your neighborhood. "Well, it's estimating 18 days until the ~download~ charge is done." Refueling with an ICE takes no time at all and can be done anywhere. Even if the car is out of gas in my driveway, I have a chance to walk and get a can of fuel and put fuel in my car (in probably less time than it would take to recharge it). I would bet that the "power company's night time rebates" would go away really fast when they were struggling to meet the sudden demand of charging everyone's cars. > Most Tesla owners are happy with their range and it will improve by 5%/year. Even if their current range is 300 miles, that's 15 miles the first year. That's not really significant. Lastly, your disagreements all seem to be either flawed or they seem to be with the less important issues (tow hitch, range) and ignore the more important (charge time, accessibility, cost, cost of infrastructure, etc).
- revelation 11y ago
  You are stuck in a gasoline mindset where you drive until empty, then you put some more dead trees in. That is not how you use an electric car, at all. Very few people will use the entirety of 200+ miles every day, and as such, their car will not be empty. It will then simply recharge every night. Also, nobody is saying you can't recharge when you want. It's just that 95% of people won't care when exactly in the day their car recharges the 50 odd miles they drove, and so that will then happen at a useful (for the grid) time.
- _ph_ 11y ago
  Assuming a car with a reasonably sized battery (Bolt, Model 3), you rarely are going to arrive "empty" at home. And if thats the case, of course you can charge immediately. But not every car owner has to do it, most are going to wait for the cheaper night rates. So there is a good chance of the grid not collapsing.
- rplst8 11y ago
  > Refueling with an ICE takes no time at all and can be done anywhere. So right. It is truly amazing that more people don't realize the disconnect here between current motor fuels and electricity. The average gallon of gasoline contains 33 kWh of energy. You can pump about 15-20 gallons in 5 minutes or so. That's equivalent to around 6 MWh or 21,000 MJ of energy, every hour. Less if you allow for the time between cars. The average household electrical supply in the US is 200A at 240V which can supply a paltry 48 kWh or 172 MJ each hour. And that's if one were able to use the supply at full capacity. Electric cars require 1/4 to 1/3 of the energy as typical ICE counterparts, but the fuel delivery systems are separated by factor of over 100. We're still well over an order of magnitude apart on the fueling convenience factor. Installing three phase 480V 400A (1.2 MJ per hour) service to homes would help solve this, but would be much more dangerous to work with - even if the charging systems on the EVs could use it.
  - _ph_ 11y ago
    An average car in Germany would require about 10kWh per day recharge, this can be done on a plain wall socket. Even if you drive twice that range every day, you would not need anywhere close to the powers you are talking about. The comparison about the energy transfer speed between gasoline and electricity is misleading. First of all, an electric vehicle is about 3x as effective, so you would need only a third of the energy transfer speed. Then, with a gasoline vehicle, you have always to drive to a fuel station and wait for it to be filled up - there speed matters. With an electric vehicle, the common case should be overnight recharge, so charge speed does not matter much there. This also means, that you are likely to start with a completely filled battery every morning. So unless you are doing long distance travel, you never have to recharge except over night (or, if your work parking facilities offer electrical outlets, during work time). And for long distance travel, there are Superchargers. Yes, those do take longer than refueling gasoline, but unless you travel long distance every day, this might be a good tradeoff.

by _ph_ 11y ago

ZeroGravitas 11y ago

The concept of getting paid to allow grid controlled charging of your vehicle is available today: http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/juicebox#rebates http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/juicebox#rebates For areas without the rebates in place they can track the carbon content of your local grid and charge only when wind turbines are producing strongly.

zodPod 11y ago

> No reason to charge them at dinner time. Timers and current control & remotely adjusting by power company My main issue is with your notion that the cars should, somehow, be limited to only charging at certain times. The issue becomes, "OMG I CUT OFF MY FINGER". "Oh, sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh, I want to go to Walmart and grab some chips." "Sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh man! I forgot about a meeting I had with my realtor!" "Sorry, cars not charged yet" > "There's no reason to recharge them at dinner time." The issue is that this could be a problem now. Instead of me just being able to put fuel in my car whenever, now I have to be like "Oh yeah, it's dinner time and I'm home. Can't recharge my car yet!" AND, when everyone has an electric car, it will very quickly become like a busy cable network in your neighborhood. "Well, it's estimating 18 days until the ~download~ charge is done." Refueling with an ICE takes no time at all and can be done anywhere. Even if the car is out of gas in my driveway, I have a chance to walk and get a can of fuel and put fuel in my car (in probably less time than it would take to recharge it). I would bet that the "power company's night time rebates" would go away really fast when they were struggling to meet the sudden demand of charging everyone's cars. > Most Tesla owners are happy with their range and it will improve by 5%/year. Even if their current range is 300 miles, that's 15 miles the first year. That's not really significant. Lastly, your disagreements all seem to be either flawed or they seem to be with the less important issues (tow hitch, range) and ignore the more important (charge time, accessibility, cost, cost of infrastructure, etc).

revelation 11y ago
You are stuck in a gasoline mindset where you drive until empty, then you put some more dead trees in. That is not how you use an electric car, at all. Very few people will use the entirety of 200+ miles every day, and as such, their car will not be empty. It will then simply recharge every night. Also, nobody is saying you can't recharge when you want. It's just that 95% of people won't care when exactly in the day their car recharges the 50 odd miles they drove, and so that will then happen at a useful (for the grid) time.
_ph_ 11y ago
Assuming a car with a reasonably sized battery (Bolt, Model 3), you rarely are going to arrive "empty" at home. And if thats the case, of course you can charge immediately. But not every car owner has to do it, most are going to wait for the cheaper night rates. So there is a good chance of the grid not collapsing.
rplst8 11y ago
> Refueling with an ICE takes no time at all and can be done anywhere. So right. It is truly amazing that more people don't realize the disconnect here between current motor fuels and electricity. The average gallon of gasoline contains 33 kWh of energy. You can pump about 15-20 gallons in 5 minutes or so. That's equivalent to around 6 MWh or 21,000 MJ of energy, every hour. Less if you allow for the time between cars. The average household electrical supply in the US is 200A at 240V which can supply a paltry 48 kWh or 172 MJ each hour. And that's if one were able to use the supply at full capacity. Electric cars require 1/4 to 1/3 of the energy as typical ICE counterparts, but the fuel delivery systems are separated by factor of over 100. We're still well over an order of magnitude apart on the fueling convenience factor. Installing three phase 480V 400A (1.2 MJ per hour) service to homes would help solve this, but would be much more dangerous to work with - even if the charging systems on the EVs could use it.
- _ph_ 11y ago
  An average car in Germany would require about 10kWh per day recharge, this can be done on a plain wall socket. Even if you drive twice that range every day, you would not need anywhere close to the powers you are talking about. The comparison about the energy transfer speed between gasoline and electricity is misleading. First of all, an electric vehicle is about 3x as effective, so you would need only a third of the energy transfer speed. Then, with a gasoline vehicle, you have always to drive to a fuel station and wait for it to be filled up - there speed matters. With an electric vehicle, the common case should be overnight recharge, so charge speed does not matter much there. This also means, that you are likely to start with a completely filled battery every morning. So unless you are doing long distance travel, you never have to recharge except over night (or, if your work parking facilities offer electrical outlets, during work time). And for long distance travel, there are Superchargers. Yes, those do take longer than refueling gasoline, but unless you travel long distance every day, this might be a good tradeoff.