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Fact 1 is utter nonsense. "Fact" doesn't mean "claim something because it sounds good for your argument". Do you see more Ferraris than Honda Civics in your nec

Fact 1 is utter nonsense. "Fact" doesn't mean "claim something because it sounds good for your argument". Do you see more Ferraris than Honda Civics in your neck of the woods? More Porsches than Kia Fortes? Regarding "Fact 2", I have no idea what they're even arguing. Their core point was absurd, and they really truly seem to think it's the rich who are buying $35K cars (not "normal", despite being utterly normal for new cars), which is laughable nonsense. This is all just a diversion. The Tesla 3 is absolutely in the center of the average new car, that normal people buy. Tesla makes, unsurprisingly, vehicles for the new car market. Tens of millions of completely normal Americans buy new cars yearly.

heartbreak 11y ago
Their core point is not absurd. Where I come from, rich people are the only ones buying new cars at all. Forget $35,000 new cars. Everyone else buys used cars - hopefully one that won't die next month.
- osweiller 11y ago
  The average new car buyer keeps it for six years. 17 million new cars are sold in the US per year. So 102 million Americans (which of course grossly underestimates as most are bought by couples/families) are buying new cars in that lifespan. Of those people, the average price is $32,000 or so. Again, the data tells us that an enormous number of completely normal, ordinary Americans buy new cars regularly, and that they spend a lot. Anecdotes or personal projections can give us a completely skewed notion about this (e.g. I know zero people who own a gun. Therefore no one owns guns), but if you compare the data to your anecdote, clearly they don't correspond. And FWIW (which is little), every one of my neighbors has vehicles worth well over the average. In the exurb town I live in on the outskirts of major city, you never, ever see an older car, or a junker, or anything of the sorts. Burger flippers have shiny new Kias. The middle class have giant SUVs. And so on.
  - knodi123 11y ago
    Let's not lose track of what started the conversation. It was somebody saying "the median family spends nowhere near that on a car". That's what we're discussing. That the amount people pay for a car, is less than what people pay for a new car. That's the only point I leapt in to defend, and if you're arguing with me against other points, then you're talking to the wrong guy. Look- the average number of arms for a tennis player is less than 2. Similarly, some (perhaps most) people spend their car-acquiring dollars on used cars. So, the average amount people spend on a car is less than the average sale price of a new car. QED, end of discussion. Now, you want to argue that among people who buy a new car, $35k is acceptably average? Okay, fine, whatever, I don't care, and neither does anybody else in this thread.
    - osweiller 11y ago
      Now, you want to argue that among people who buy a new car, This conversation is specifically and only about new cars, in this case the Tesla Model 3. It is outrageous that you're implying that I'm the one diverting the conversation, when the very root post by dionidium was a completely irrelevant non-sequitur as they injected some completely irrelevant sociology bias into the conversation. If we were discussing the average price of a fast food meal, would a comment about a Cup O' Noodles have any relevance? No one cares to argue what people pay for used cars, or for no car at all, because that is irrelevant to this discussion.
      - knodi123 11y ago
        > This conversation is specifically and only about new cars I understand that's certainly how you've been behaving. Despite several people trying to disabuse you of that notion.
knodi123 11y ago
> Fact 1 is utter nonsense. "Fact" doesn't mean "claim something because it sounds good for your argument". Rebutting an argument by claiming it is not based on any evidence? While providing absolutely no evidence of your own? Okay, cool. > Regarding "Fact 2", I have no idea what they're even arguing Their core point was if you're discussing people who buy new cars, you're already skewing away from the poorer demographics. People spend less on average to buy a car, than they do to buy a new car. > The Tesla 3 is absolutely in the center of the average new car, that normal people buy The tesla 3 is a little above the average price that people pay for a new car, among the fraction of people who buy new cars. Which most people don't do.

heartbreak 11y ago

Their core point is not absurd. Where I come from, rich people are the only ones buying new cars at all. Forget $35,000 new cars. Everyone else buys used cars - hopefully one that won't die next month.

osweiller 11y ago
The average new car buyer keeps it for six years. 17 million new cars are sold in the US per year. So 102 million Americans (which of course grossly underestimates as most are bought by couples/families) are buying new cars in that lifespan. Of those people, the average price is $32,000 or so. Again, the data tells us that an enormous number of completely normal, ordinary Americans buy new cars regularly, and that they spend a lot. Anecdotes or personal projections can give us a completely skewed notion about this (e.g. I know zero people who own a gun. Therefore no one owns guns), but if you compare the data to your anecdote, clearly they don't correspond. And FWIW (which is little), every one of my neighbors has vehicles worth well over the average. In the exurb town I live in on the outskirts of major city, you never, ever see an older car, or a junker, or anything of the sorts. Burger flippers have shiny new Kias. The middle class have giant SUVs. And so on.
- knodi123 11y ago
  Let's not lose track of what started the conversation. It was somebody saying "the median family spends nowhere near that on a car". That's what we're discussing. That the amount people pay for a car, is less than what people pay for a new car. That's the only point I leapt in to defend, and if you're arguing with me against other points, then you're talking to the wrong guy. Look- the average number of arms for a tennis player is less than 2. Similarly, some (perhaps most) people spend their car-acquiring dollars on used cars. So, the average amount people spend on a car is less than the average sale price of a new car. QED, end of discussion. Now, you want to argue that among people who buy a new car, $35k is acceptably average? Okay, fine, whatever, I don't care, and neither does anybody else in this thread.
  - osweiller 11y ago
    Now, you want to argue that among people who buy a new car, This conversation is specifically and only about new cars, in this case the Tesla Model 3. It is outrageous that you're implying that I'm the one diverting the conversation, when the very root post by dionidium was a completely irrelevant non-sequitur as they injected some completely irrelevant sociology bias into the conversation. If we were discussing the average price of a fast food meal, would a comment about a Cup O' Noodles have any relevance? No one cares to argue what people pay for used cars, or for no car at all, because that is irrelevant to this discussion.
    - knodi123 11y ago
      > This conversation is specifically and only about new cars I understand that's certainly how you've been behaving. Despite several people trying to disabuse you of that notion.

knodi123 11y ago

> Fact 1 is utter nonsense. "Fact" doesn't mean "claim something because it sounds good for your argument". Rebutting an argument by claiming it is not based on any evidence? While providing absolutely no evidence of your own? Okay, cool. > Regarding "Fact 2", I have no idea what they're even arguing Their core point was if you're discussing people who buy new cars, you're already skewing away from the poorer demographics. People spend less on average to buy a car, than they do to buy a new car. > The Tesla 3 is absolutely in the center of the average new car, that normal people buy The tesla 3 is a little above the average price that people pay for a new car, among the fraction of people who buy new cars. Which most people don't do.