7 ms·

Interesting. In Germany this database does not even exist. Each town keeps its own data and they are not connected. I think the reason for this are the evil use

Interesting. In Germany this database does not even exist. Each town keeps its own data and they are not connected. I think the reason for this are the evil uses of data bases by the Gestapo during Nazi times.

germanier 11y ago
Most states keep all data in a state-wide database and all registers are electronically connected. This is the reason why you don't need to deregister anymore when moving within Germany, a new registration will suffice. What there isn't is a single central database and if you want to query data you will need to ask different authorities to get it all.
SixSigma 11y ago
> the evil uses of data bases by the Gestapo during Nazi times. IBM leased them the machines and sold them the punched cards. And then sold them the census data they had collected across Europe during the 1930s. http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
nxzero 11y ago
It exist at the very least for intell reasons.
contingencies 11y ago
If you are German and have a passport then you are in a centralized database.
kafkaesq 11y ago
In Germany this database does not even exist. That seems highly doubtful. How do the EU countries know you're a citizen, then, when you cross the border?
- SolarNet 11y ago
  If his claim is correct it seems they would call the town in question. Maybe the EU has a database that includes Germans though.
- more_original 11y ago
  Here is a source on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_registration#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_registration#Germany "Unlike common belief there is no central administration — except for foreigners (see Central Register of Foreign Nationals (Germany)) — the resident registration is run by 5283 local offices throughout Germany." For passports, I'd guess that there is a different database.
  - kafkaesq 11y ago
    For passports, I'd guess that there is a different database. OK, so that makes sense. So at the national level, they only have your Meldeort (place of registration), as it appears on your ID card -- but not (in theory) your residential address.
  - germanier 11y ago
    There is neither a federal passport nor ID card database. All data is saved in the same databases as the usual resident registration.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  As with most borders, they do not.
- germanier 11y ago
  They look at the ID card or passport you present. They may make a record of your entry and may look up whether your ID was stolen or there is a warrant for you. They certainly don't look up in a database whether you are a citizen. Such an EU-wide thing simply doesn't exist. Heck, even the entry and exit records are not in a common database. At the moment many borders can't even verify the government signature saved on the chip. That's the same how other government officials determine your German citizenship in most circumstances. Only very few people go through the process of getting definitive proof of their citizenship (Staatsangehörigenausweis) in any point of their life as there is simply no reason to. This process takes quite some time, often including looking at some non-digitized paper documents archived somewhere.
  - kafkaesq 11y ago
    They certainly don't look up in a database whether you are a citizen. OK, "citizen or valid resident / visa holder / having some other legitimate reason to be holding something that looks like an EU identity card", then. Whichever -- I was just simplifying. But something tells me that something at major border crossings (e.g. hub airports) has to at least authenticate your right-of-entry -- and that your travel document isn't outright fabricated -- at least a significant portion of the time. Again, as applies strictly to cases of persons attempting to enter the Shengen area, on the basis of possession of an EU identity card, or a similar travel document asserting current legal residency in one of the member countries. I just don't see how they can (effectively) tell whether the document hasn't been forged or revoked, without comparing against a master list.
    - germanier 11y ago
      I can assure you that they do not check for positive entry in any database when crossing into Schengen whatsoever. Usually they check if the presented document is marked stolen but even that is sometimes skipped as the database (SIS II) is rather slow. This database contains around 50 million entries which shows that it can't possible hold information on all residents. There is neither an EU-wide database of citizens, nor of permanent residents. They do have a database of most issued short-term Schengen visa nowadays (VIS) but even that took a lot of effort to implement. And as said, at the moment they can't even verify all electronic signatures in electronic passports but that should be fixed soon. I'm not even sure how they would create such a database of citizens as even not the German government has a conclusive list of all citizens and I presume it's similar in other member states. That check for the right-of-entry is done with the presented document alone. Revocations are checked against and while it's possible to forge the documents it's not easy. But yes, there are known cases of people successfully entering with forged documents.
agopaul 11y ago
How can the German IRS do their job then?
- more_original 11y ago
  In 2007 they introduced a unique tax number for every natural person. In fact, assigning these numbers was complicated by the fact that there is no central registration data base. They started from all the local data bases and then filtered this data to remove duplicates. Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnummer https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnum... (sorry, German only)
- er_lui 11y ago
  German people comply to taxation laws, as no one else in Europe does ;)

germanier 11y ago

Most states keep all data in a state-wide database and all registers are electronically connected. This is the reason why you don't need to deregister anymore when moving within Germany, a new registration will suffice. What there isn't is a single central database and if you want to query data you will need to ask different authorities to get it all.

SixSigma 11y ago

> the evil uses of data bases by the Gestapo during Nazi times. IBM leased them the machines and sold them the punched cards. And then sold them the census data they had collected across Europe during the 1930s. http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

nxzero 11y ago

It exist at the very least for intell reasons.

contingencies 11y ago

If you are German and have a passport then you are in a centralized database.

kafkaesq 11y ago

In Germany this database does not even exist. That seems highly doubtful. How do the EU countries know you're a citizen, then, when you cross the border?

SolarNet 11y ago
If his claim is correct it seems they would call the town in question. Maybe the EU has a database that includes Germans though.
more_original 11y ago
Here is a source on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_registration#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_registration#Germany "Unlike common belief there is no central administration — except for foreigners (see Central Register of Foreign Nationals (Germany)) — the resident registration is run by 5283 local offices throughout Germany." For passports, I'd guess that there is a different database.
- kafkaesq 11y ago
  For passports, I'd guess that there is a different database. OK, so that makes sense. So at the national level, they only have your Meldeort (place of registration), as it appears on your ID card -- but not (in theory) your residential address.
- germanier 11y ago
  There is neither a federal passport nor ID card database. All data is saved in the same databases as the usual resident registration.
ryanlol 11y ago
As with most borders, they do not.
germanier 11y ago
They look at the ID card or passport you present. They may make a record of your entry and may look up whether your ID was stolen or there is a warrant for you. They certainly don't look up in a database whether you are a citizen. Such an EU-wide thing simply doesn't exist. Heck, even the entry and exit records are not in a common database. At the moment many borders can't even verify the government signature saved on the chip. That's the same how other government officials determine your German citizenship in most circumstances. Only very few people go through the process of getting definitive proof of their citizenship (Staatsangehörigenausweis) in any point of their life as there is simply no reason to. This process takes quite some time, often including looking at some non-digitized paper documents archived somewhere.
- kafkaesq 11y ago
  They certainly don't look up in a database whether you are a citizen. OK, "citizen or valid resident / visa holder / having some other legitimate reason to be holding something that looks like an EU identity card", then. Whichever -- I was just simplifying. But something tells me that something at major border crossings (e.g. hub airports) has to at least authenticate your right-of-entry -- and that your travel document isn't outright fabricated -- at least a significant portion of the time. Again, as applies strictly to cases of persons attempting to enter the Shengen area, on the basis of possession of an EU identity card, or a similar travel document asserting current legal residency in one of the member countries. I just don't see how they can (effectively) tell whether the document hasn't been forged or revoked, without comparing against a master list.
  - germanier 11y ago
    I can assure you that they do not check for positive entry in any database when crossing into Schengen whatsoever. Usually they check if the presented document is marked stolen but even that is sometimes skipped as the database (SIS II) is rather slow. This database contains around 50 million entries which shows that it can't possible hold information on all residents. There is neither an EU-wide database of citizens, nor of permanent residents. They do have a database of most issued short-term Schengen visa nowadays (VIS) but even that took a lot of effort to implement. And as said, at the moment they can't even verify all electronic signatures in electronic passports but that should be fixed soon. I'm not even sure how they would create such a database of citizens as even not the German government has a conclusive list of all citizens and I presume it's similar in other member states. That check for the right-of-entry is done with the presented document alone. Revocations are checked against and while it's possible to forge the documents it's not easy. But yes, there are known cases of people successfully entering with forged documents.

agopaul 11y ago

How can the German IRS do their job then?

more_original 11y ago
In 2007 they introduced a unique tax number for every natural person. In fact, assigning these numbers was complicated by the fact that there is no central registration data base. They started from all the local data bases and then filtered this data to remove duplicates. Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnummer https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnum... (sorry, German only)
er_lui 11y ago
German people comply to taxation laws, as no one else in Europe does ;)