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I did a quick Google search. According to KBB the average price for a new car in August 2015 was $33,543. Since this doesn't include used cars, I think it's fa

by ma2rten 11y ago

I did a quick Google search. According to KBB the average price for a new car in August 2015 was $33,543. Since this doesn't include used cars, I think it's fair to say that the average household is spending less than that.

osweiller 11y ago
The goal posts seem to keep moving, but this whole discussion began because of a disagreement about whether this would qualify as a "mass produced" car because "Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car". Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150, sells for over $41K generally. There are many other completely ordinary, most certainly mass produced, vehicles in that price range. Bought by entirely "normal" people. These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-behavior-indicative-of-l-421 http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-be...) about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal".
- dionidium 11y ago
  Since you're the second person in this thread to think my post had anything at all to do with the definition of "mass-produced," I guess I should apologize for being unclear. That wasn't my point at all. Obviously it will be "mass-produced" for any reasonable definition of the phrase. My point was that this is still a luxury vehicle that will be purchased by people whose wallets will be able to handle production problems. "Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150" There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. "These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal"." This is hilarious because it's exactly what I'm responding to. Some set of the HN crowd, despite this entire discussion, still seems to think $40k is a normal amount of money to spend on a car. It isn't. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. The median family does not, in fact, buy $40k cars, regardless of whether you think I'm projecting or not. Here, for example, is some information on median used car prices: http://priceonomics.com/cars/ http://priceonomics.com/cars/
  - osweiller 11y ago
    From your original post. The statement that everyone apparently isn't understanding right- One minor counter to this is that you shouldn't get too caught up in the hype about this being a mass-produced car. HN and tech journalism is a bit of a bubble. Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car. You are moving the goal posts around to somehow derive a win through some simply wrong statements. That's hardly uncommon, and is the manifestation of ego. There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. The overwhelming bulk of F150s are bought for personal use, which is exactly why the average price is so high now. The work truck doesn't have the leather interior and xenon lighting package. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. I have no idea what your "side" even is (though your core claims are simply wrong, it seems that you're trying to say that this is such an exclusive, abnormal price range of cars that the buyers are more forgiving? I find that almost impossible to believe: if you want to see an angry, demanding customer, get to know someone with a BMW 3-series). There are almost 18 million new vehicles sold in the US per year. The average price is pushing towards $35K. This is where Tesla is getting involved (I don't think anyone makes cars for the used car market...), exactly at the sweet spot of the average price. Your priceonomics link has literally zero relevance to this, or data applicable to this discussion. You desperately want to be right, and that's a pretty common sentiment. Fine. But your original claim was simply wrong (elsewhere you twisted it to not only somehow claim that these people aren't "normal", but also that people who buy a more expensive car are wrong and shouldn't be doing it anyways), however much you claim that people missed your ethereal point. The Tesla 3 absolutely falls within the realm of mass produced cars, and millions of entirely "normal" people are buying that price range of vehicle. They are targeting a completely ordinary market.
    - dionidium 11y ago
      I'd like to make a meta-point here, not to osweiller (who thinks I'm making garbage, absurd, incomprehensible, bad-faith arguments, anyway), but just in general. There's this weird thing people do sometimes where you make a point, they respond to a different point, and then you explain that that wasn't your point at all and attempt to clarify what your point actually was. And then this is where it gets weird: they then tell you, nope, you're wrong, your point was whatever they first interpreted it to be, no matter that you just clarified that that wasn't your point and tried to clear up the confusion. Please don't do this. It's a really uncharitable and unnecessary way to conduct a discussion. I just told you what I intended my point to be. What do you gain by claiming that I'm hiding some other actual point? What would I gain by hiding some other point? In this particular case, I didn't even put any blame on the reader. I blamed myself and apologized for being unclear. If that's goal-post moving, then what hope do any of us have?
- ams6110 11y ago
  Most F-150 sales are fleet purchases by utilities, construction companies, highway departments, etc. That's why the numbers are so high. If you looked at private party purchases they would be much lower.
  - osweiller 11y ago
    >50% of the F-150s sold are their top tier, premium models (Lariat, King Ranch and Platinum). There are zero fleets that buy these models. This excludes the millions of lower models bought to pull boats and carry egos. Which is how the average selling price is greater than $45,000 now (which, again, is far beyond what fleets are buying for service trucks).
  - dionidium 11y ago
    A couple things about the F-150: 1) It is absolutely true that they sell more retail trucks than fleet trucks 2) I was merely pointing out that it wouldn't be the most popular vehicle on the market without the fleet sales 3) This has nothing to do with my original point and I probably shouldn't even have responded to it

by ma2rten 11y ago

osweiller 11y ago

The goal posts seem to keep moving, but this whole discussion began because of a disagreement about whether this would qualify as a "mass produced" car because "Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car". Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150, sells for over $41K generally. There are many other completely ordinary, most certainly mass produced, vehicles in that price range. Bought by entirely "normal" people. These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-behavior-indicative-of-l-421 http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-be...) about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal".

dionidium 11y ago
Since you're the second person in this thread to think my post had anything at all to do with the definition of "mass-produced," I guess I should apologize for being unclear. That wasn't my point at all. Obviously it will be "mass-produced" for any reasonable definition of the phrase. My point was that this is still a luxury vehicle that will be purchased by people whose wallets will be able to handle production problems. "Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150" There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. "These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal"." This is hilarious because it's exactly what I'm responding to. Some set of the HN crowd, despite this entire discussion, still seems to think $40k is a normal amount of money to spend on a car. It isn't. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. The median family does not, in fact, buy $40k cars, regardless of whether you think I'm projecting or not. Here, for example, is some information on median used car prices: http://priceonomics.com/cars/ http://priceonomics.com/cars/
- osweiller 11y ago
  From your original post. The statement that everyone apparently isn't understanding right- One minor counter to this is that you shouldn't get too caught up in the hype about this being a mass-produced car. HN and tech journalism is a bit of a bubble. Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car. You are moving the goal posts around to somehow derive a win through some simply wrong statements. That's hardly uncommon, and is the manifestation of ego. There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. The overwhelming bulk of F150s are bought for personal use, which is exactly why the average price is so high now. The work truck doesn't have the leather interior and xenon lighting package. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. I have no idea what your "side" even is (though your core claims are simply wrong, it seems that you're trying to say that this is such an exclusive, abnormal price range of cars that the buyers are more forgiving? I find that almost impossible to believe: if you want to see an angry, demanding customer, get to know someone with a BMW 3-series). There are almost 18 million new vehicles sold in the US per year. The average price is pushing towards $35K. This is where Tesla is getting involved (I don't think anyone makes cars for the used car market...), exactly at the sweet spot of the average price. Your priceonomics link has literally zero relevance to this, or data applicable to this discussion. You desperately want to be right, and that's a pretty common sentiment. Fine. But your original claim was simply wrong (elsewhere you twisted it to not only somehow claim that these people aren't "normal", but also that people who buy a more expensive car are wrong and shouldn't be doing it anyways), however much you claim that people missed your ethereal point. The Tesla 3 absolutely falls within the realm of mass produced cars, and millions of entirely "normal" people are buying that price range of vehicle. They are targeting a completely ordinary market.
  - dionidium 11y ago
    I'd like to make a meta-point here, not to osweiller (who thinks I'm making garbage, absurd, incomprehensible, bad-faith arguments, anyway), but just in general. There's this weird thing people do sometimes where you make a point, they respond to a different point, and then you explain that that wasn't your point at all and attempt to clarify what your point actually was. And then this is where it gets weird: they then tell you, nope, you're wrong, your point was whatever they first interpreted it to be, no matter that you just clarified that that wasn't your point and tried to clear up the confusion. Please don't do this. It's a really uncharitable and unnecessary way to conduct a discussion. I just told you what I intended my point to be. What do you gain by claiming that I'm hiding some other actual point? What would I gain by hiding some other point? In this particular case, I didn't even put any blame on the reader. I blamed myself and apologized for being unclear. If that's goal-post moving, then what hope do any of us have?
ams6110 11y ago
Most F-150 sales are fleet purchases by utilities, construction companies, highway departments, etc. That's why the numbers are so high. If you looked at private party purchases they would be much lower.
- osweiller 11y ago
  >50% of the F-150s sold are their top tier, premium models (Lariat, King Ranch and Platinum). There are zero fleets that buy these models. This excludes the millions of lower models bought to pull boats and carry egos. Which is how the average selling price is greater than $45,000 now (which, again, is far beyond what fleets are buying for service trucks).
- dionidium 11y ago
  A couple things about the F-150: 1) It is absolutely true that they sell more retail trucks than fleet trucks 2) I was merely pointing out that it wouldn't be the most popular vehicle on the market without the fleet sales 3) This has nothing to do with my original point and I probably shouldn't even have responded to it