3 ms·

Do you have any evidence or data to demonstrate that the "median family" spends less than the average? The average family also isn't buying the Kia Rondo, but I

Do you have any evidence or data to demonstrate that the "median family" spends less than the average? The average family also isn't buying the Kia Rondo, but I'm not claiming that these beginner cars are skewing the values down, just as I see no data whatsoever to demonstrate any skewing up. SUVs are everywhere. Light trucks are everywhere. Minivans are everywhere. Most of these are in the $35K+ range (the F150 -- the top selling US vehicle -- has an average selling price of $41,776). Even a decently equipped Honda Accord (along with light trucks, the most popular car in the US. Not the Civic, but the Accord) is pushing past $30K. Often the median and the average skew. But minus actual data beyond just anecdotes, the average is the best we have.

ma2rten 11y ago
I did a quick Google search. According to KBB the average price for a new car in August 2015 was $33,543. Since this doesn't include used cars, I think it's fair to say that the average household is spending less than that.
- osweiller 11y ago
  The goal posts seem to keep moving, but this whole discussion began because of a disagreement about whether this would qualify as a "mass produced" car because "Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car". Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150, sells for over $41K generally. There are many other completely ordinary, most certainly mass produced, vehicles in that price range. Bought by entirely "normal" people. These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-behavior-indicative-of-l-421 http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-be...) about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal".
  - dionidium 11y ago
    Since you're the second person in this thread to think my post had anything at all to do with the definition of "mass-produced," I guess I should apologize for being unclear. That wasn't my point at all. Obviously it will be "mass-produced" for any reasonable definition of the phrase. My point was that this is still a luxury vehicle that will be purchased by people whose wallets will be able to handle production problems. "Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150" There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. "These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal"." This is hilarious because it's exactly what I'm responding to. Some set of the HN crowd, despite this entire discussion, still seems to think $40k is a normal amount of money to spend on a car. It isn't. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. The median family does not, in fact, buy $40k cars, regardless of whether you think I'm projecting or not. Here, for example, is some information on median used car prices: http://priceonomics.com/cars/ http://priceonomics.com/cars/
    - osweiller 11y ago
      From your original post. The statement that everyone apparently isn't understanding right- One minor counter to this is that you shouldn't get too caught up in the hype about this being a mass-produced car. HN and tech journalism is a bit of a bubble. Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car. You are moving the goal posts around to somehow derive a win through some simply wrong statements. That's hardly uncommon, and is the manifestation of ego. There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. The overwhelming bulk of F150s are bought for personal use, which is exactly why the average price is so high now. The work truck doesn't have the leather interior and xenon lighting package. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. I have no idea what your "side" even is (though your core claims are simply wrong, it seems that you're trying to say that this is such an exclusive, abnormal price range of cars that the buyers are more forgiving? I find that almost impossible to believe: if you want to see an angry, demanding customer, get to know someone with a BMW 3-series). There are almost 18 million new vehicles sold in the US per year. The average price is pushing towards $35K. This is where Tesla is getting involved (I don't think anyone makes cars for the used car market...), exactly at the sweet spot of the average price. Your priceonomics link has literally zero relevance to this, or data applicable to this discussion. You desperately want to be right, and that's a pretty common sentiment. Fine. But your original claim was simply wrong (elsewhere you twisted it to not only somehow claim that these people aren't "normal", but also that people who buy a more expensive car are wrong and shouldn't be doing it anyways), however much you claim that people missed your ethereal point. The Tesla 3 absolutely falls within the realm of mass produced cars, and millions of entirely "normal" people are buying that price range of vehicle. They are targeting a completely ordinary market.
      - dionidium 11y ago
        I'd like to make a meta-point here, not to osweiller (who thinks I'm making garbage, absurd, incomprehensible, bad-faith arguments, anyway), but just in general. There's this weird thing people do sometimes where you make a point, they respond to a different point, and then you explain that that wasn't your point at all and attempt to clarify what your point actually was. And then this is where it gets weird: they then tell you, nope, you're wrong, your point was whatever they first interpreted it to be, no matter that you just clarified that that wasn't your point and tried to clear up the confusion. Please don't do this. It's a really uncharitable and unnecessary way to conduct a discussion. I just told you what I intended my point to be. What do you gain by claiming that I'm hiding some other actual point? What would I gain by hiding some other point? In this particular case, I didn't even put any blame on the reader. I blamed myself and apologized for being unclear. If that's goal-post moving, then what hope do any of us have?
  - ams6110 11y ago
    Most F-150 sales are fleet purchases by utilities, construction companies, highway departments, etc. That's why the numbers are so high. If you looked at private party purchases they would be much lower.
    - osweiller 11y ago
      >50% of the F-150s sold are their top tier, premium models (Lariat, King Ranch and Platinum). There are zero fleets that buy these models. This excludes the millions of lower models bought to pull boats and carry egos. Which is how the average selling price is greater than $45,000 now (which, again, is far beyond what fleets are buying for service trucks).
    - dionidium 11y ago
      A couple things about the F-150: 1) It is absolutely true that they sell more retail trucks than fleet trucks 2) I was merely pointing out that it wouldn't be the most popular vehicle on the market without the fleet sales 3) This has nothing to do with my original point and I probably shouldn't even have responded to it
ams6110 11y ago
I would never spend more than $10K on a car.
- jamisteven 11y ago
  Never say never.
  - d0lph 11y ago
    You just did twice though. Filthy hypocrite.
- dionidium 11y ago
  Throughout this thread I've argued that most people do not spend $40k on a car. That really shouldn't be controversial, since it's easily verified. If you want controversial, here you go: a lot of people in this thread own cars that cost $40k and up on a salary that doesn't justify it. They think they can justify it. Everyone is telling them they can afford it. Their friends all have similar salaries and similar cars. But they're spending too much. http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buying-everyone-must-follow/ http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buyin...
  - naveen99 11y ago
    Agree should spend less on cars, but you also need a dependable and honest mechanic who won't milk you on a used car. Also is driving for Uber really good financial advice ? And why do people use gross income. Should use net income. It's not like you can deduct your car on taxes.
knodi123 11y ago
> Do you have any evidence or data to demonstrate that the "median family" spends less than the average? Fact 1: there are a lot more super-expensive cars than super-cheap cars. Fact 2: The guy you replied to is talking about what a family spends on a car, not what they spend on a new car Fact 3: income inequality means there are a lot more poor families than wealthy families. income distribution in america is not a bell curve.
- osweiller 11y ago
  Fact 1 is utter nonsense. "Fact" doesn't mean "claim something because it sounds good for your argument". Do you see more Ferraris than Honda Civics in your neck of the woods? More Porsches than Kia Fortes? Regarding "Fact 2", I have no idea what they're even arguing. Their core point was absurd, and they really truly seem to think it's the rich who are buying $35K cars (not "normal", despite being utterly normal for new cars), which is laughable nonsense. This is all just a diversion. The Tesla 3 is absolutely in the center of the average new car, that normal people buy. Tesla makes, unsurprisingly, vehicles for the new car market. Tens of millions of completely normal Americans buy new cars yearly.
  - heartbreak 11y ago
    Their core point is not absurd. Where I come from, rich people are the only ones buying new cars at all. Forget $35,000 new cars. Everyone else buys used cars - hopefully one that won't die next month.
    - osweiller 11y ago
      The average new car buyer keeps it for six years. 17 million new cars are sold in the US per year. So 102 million Americans (which of course grossly underestimates as most are bought by couples/families) are buying new cars in that lifespan. Of those people, the average price is $32,000 or so. Again, the data tells us that an enormous number of completely normal, ordinary Americans buy new cars regularly, and that they spend a lot. Anecdotes or personal projections can give us a completely skewed notion about this (e.g. I know zero people who own a gun. Therefore no one owns guns), but if you compare the data to your anecdote, clearly they don't correspond. And FWIW (which is little), every one of my neighbors has vehicles worth well over the average. In the exurb town I live in on the outskirts of major city, you never, ever see an older car, or a junker, or anything of the sorts. Burger flippers have shiny new Kias. The middle class have giant SUVs. And so on.

ma2rten 11y ago

I did a quick Google search. According to KBB the average price for a new car in August 2015 was $33,543. Since this doesn't include used cars, I think it's fair to say that the average household is spending less than that.

osweiller 11y ago
The goal posts seem to keep moving, but this whole discussion began because of a disagreement about whether this would qualify as a "mass produced" car because "Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car". Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150, sells for over $41K generally. There are many other completely ordinary, most certainly mass produced, vehicles in that price range. Bought by entirely "normal" people. These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-behavior-indicative-of-l-421 http://www.theonion.com/article/sociologist-considers-own-be...) about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal".
- dionidium 11y ago
  Since you're the second person in this thread to think my post had anything at all to do with the definition of "mass-produced," I guess I should apologize for being unclear. That wasn't my point at all. Obviously it will be "mass-produced" for any reasonable definition of the phrase. My point was that this is still a luxury vehicle that will be purchased by people whose wallets will be able to handle production problems. "Yet the #1, most popular vehicle sold in the US, the Ford F-150" There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. "These discussions always remind me of a great Onion article about projecting one's own lot across the population at large, and using our own situation and choices to define "normal"." This is hilarious because it's exactly what I'm responding to. Some set of the HN crowd, despite this entire discussion, still seems to think $40k is a normal amount of money to spend on a car. It isn't. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. The median family does not, in fact, buy $40k cars, regardless of whether you think I'm projecting or not. Here, for example, is some information on median used car prices: http://priceonomics.com/cars/ http://priceonomics.com/cars/
  - osweiller 11y ago
    From your original post. The statement that everyone apparently isn't understanding right- One minor counter to this is that you shouldn't get too caught up in the hype about this being a mass-produced car. HN and tech journalism is a bit of a bubble. Normal people do not spend $35-40k on a car. You are moving the goal posts around to somehow derive a win through some simply wrong statements. That's hardly uncommon, and is the manifestation of ego. There is a reason for that. That is a work vehicle. The overwhelming bulk of F150s are bought for personal use, which is exactly why the average price is so high now. The work truck doesn't have the leather interior and xenon lighting package. And, again, I think the evidence is on my side. I have no idea what your "side" even is (though your core claims are simply wrong, it seems that you're trying to say that this is such an exclusive, abnormal price range of cars that the buyers are more forgiving? I find that almost impossible to believe: if you want to see an angry, demanding customer, get to know someone with a BMW 3-series). There are almost 18 million new vehicles sold in the US per year. The average price is pushing towards $35K. This is where Tesla is getting involved (I don't think anyone makes cars for the used car market...), exactly at the sweet spot of the average price. Your priceonomics link has literally zero relevance to this, or data applicable to this discussion. You desperately want to be right, and that's a pretty common sentiment. Fine. But your original claim was simply wrong (elsewhere you twisted it to not only somehow claim that these people aren't "normal", but also that people who buy a more expensive car are wrong and shouldn't be doing it anyways), however much you claim that people missed your ethereal point. The Tesla 3 absolutely falls within the realm of mass produced cars, and millions of entirely "normal" people are buying that price range of vehicle. They are targeting a completely ordinary market.
    - dionidium 11y ago
      I'd like to make a meta-point here, not to osweiller (who thinks I'm making garbage, absurd, incomprehensible, bad-faith arguments, anyway), but just in general. There's this weird thing people do sometimes where you make a point, they respond to a different point, and then you explain that that wasn't your point at all and attempt to clarify what your point actually was. And then this is where it gets weird: they then tell you, nope, you're wrong, your point was whatever they first interpreted it to be, no matter that you just clarified that that wasn't your point and tried to clear up the confusion. Please don't do this. It's a really uncharitable and unnecessary way to conduct a discussion. I just told you what I intended my point to be. What do you gain by claiming that I'm hiding some other actual point? What would I gain by hiding some other point? In this particular case, I didn't even put any blame on the reader. I blamed myself and apologized for being unclear. If that's goal-post moving, then what hope do any of us have?
- ams6110 11y ago
  Most F-150 sales are fleet purchases by utilities, construction companies, highway departments, etc. That's why the numbers are so high. If you looked at private party purchases they would be much lower.
  - osweiller 11y ago
    >50% of the F-150s sold are their top tier, premium models (Lariat, King Ranch and Platinum). There are zero fleets that buy these models. This excludes the millions of lower models bought to pull boats and carry egos. Which is how the average selling price is greater than $45,000 now (which, again, is far beyond what fleets are buying for service trucks).
  - dionidium 11y ago
    A couple things about the F-150: 1) It is absolutely true that they sell more retail trucks than fleet trucks 2) I was merely pointing out that it wouldn't be the most popular vehicle on the market without the fleet sales 3) This has nothing to do with my original point and I probably shouldn't even have responded to it

ams6110 11y ago

I would never spend more than $10K on a car.

jamisteven 11y ago
Never say never.
- d0lph 11y ago
  You just did twice though. Filthy hypocrite.
dionidium 11y ago
Throughout this thread I've argued that most people do not spend $40k on a car. That really shouldn't be controversial, since it's easily verified. If you want controversial, here you go: a lot of people in this thread own cars that cost $40k and up on a salary that doesn't justify it. They think they can justify it. Everyone is telling them they can afford it. Their friends all have similar salaries and similar cars. But they're spending too much. http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buying-everyone-must-follow/ http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buyin...
- naveen99 11y ago
  Agree should spend less on cars, but you also need a dependable and honest mechanic who won't milk you on a used car. Also is driving for Uber really good financial advice ? And why do people use gross income. Should use net income. It's not like you can deduct your car on taxes.

knodi123 11y ago

> Do you have any evidence or data to demonstrate that the "median family" spends less than the average? Fact 1: there are a lot more super-expensive cars than super-cheap cars. Fact 2: The guy you replied to is talking about what a family spends on a car, not what they spend on a new car Fact 3: income inequality means there are a lot more poor families than wealthy families. income distribution in america is not a bell curve.

osweiller 11y ago
Fact 1 is utter nonsense. "Fact" doesn't mean "claim something because it sounds good for your argument". Do you see more Ferraris than Honda Civics in your neck of the woods? More Porsches than Kia Fortes? Regarding "Fact 2", I have no idea what they're even arguing. Their core point was absurd, and they really truly seem to think it's the rich who are buying $35K cars (not "normal", despite being utterly normal for new cars), which is laughable nonsense. This is all just a diversion. The Tesla 3 is absolutely in the center of the average new car, that normal people buy. Tesla makes, unsurprisingly, vehicles for the new car market. Tens of millions of completely normal Americans buy new cars yearly.
- heartbreak 11y ago
  Their core point is not absurd. Where I come from, rich people are the only ones buying new cars at all. Forget $35,000 new cars. Everyone else buys used cars - hopefully one that won't die next month.
  - osweiller 11y ago
    The average new car buyer keeps it for six years. 17 million new cars are sold in the US per year. So 102 million Americans (which of course grossly underestimates as most are bought by couples/families) are buying new cars in that lifespan. Of those people, the average price is $32,000 or so. Again, the data tells us that an enormous number of completely normal, ordinary Americans buy new cars regularly, and that they spend a lot. Anecdotes or personal projections can give us a completely skewed notion about this (e.g. I know zero people who own a gun. Therefore no one owns guns), but if you compare the data to your anecdote, clearly they don't correspond. And FWIW (which is little), every one of my neighbors has vehicles worth well over the average. In the exurb town I live in on the outskirts of major city, you never, ever see an older car, or a junker, or anything of the sorts. Burger flippers have shiny new Kias. The middle class have giant SUVs. And so on.