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Tesla does not have and never had any battery tech. They use off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries that are exactly the same ones you put in flashlights[1]. Tesla

Tesla does not have and never had any battery tech. They use off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries that are exactly the same ones you put in flashlights[1]. Tesla made one major innovation. They realized that people will buy an electric car for $100,000. That's really it! They have an attractive and very good car, but it is market innovation that is Tesla's essential advantage. 1: http://www.amazon.com/NCR18650B-3400mAh-Rechargeable-Battery-Panasonic/dp/B00DHXY72O http://www.amazon.com/NCR18650B-3400mAh-Rechargeable-Battery...

wnevets 11y ago
sounds like an apple product.
jakswa 11y ago
I'll go out on a limb and call BS on this. An Amazon link doesn't do a good job saying Tesla has no battery tech. That I'm aware of, Tesla has at least designed some thermal management around their battery cells, to ensure optimal operating temperature (and extending battery lifetime, compared to air-cooled batteries like the initial LEAFs). http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bltbattrygearbox-slide-1.jpg http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bltbattrygea...
mikeash 11y ago
I imagine you've read that Tesla uses 18650 cells in their batteries. And it's true! But what you may not realize is that 18650 is just a size and shape. 18650 just means the cell is 18mm in diameter and 65mm long. Tesla uses these cells, but the guts aren't the same as what you'll find in something from Amazon.
- Gracana 11y ago
  Many sources online say those are the batteries that Tesla uses. Panasonic NCR18650Bs, and before that, Panasonic NCR18650As. Same as you buy on Amazon. This guy did a teardown[0] and did a single-cell discharge test and got a little under 3Ah.[1] [0] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the-battery-pack.34934/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the... [1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the-battery-pack.34934/page-28#post-969995 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the...
  - mikeash 11y ago
    What sources? A brief search turns up some speculation but nothing that appears at all informed, although I certainly could have missed it. I'm not surprised capacity is similar to what you'd find off the shelf, but I'd expect chemistry to be tweaked to account for the different environment and much higher need for longevity.
    - steve19 11y ago
      There has never been any indication they are using anything other than standard cells. These cells are produced for loads of industrial and consumer uses. The chemistry is well known. http://news.panasonic.com/global/topics/2011/6971.html http://news.panasonic.com/global/topics/2011/6971.html http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084682_what-goes-into-a-tesla-model-s-battery--and-what-it-may-cost http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084682_what-goes-into-a...
  - Animats 11y ago
    Of course they're Panasonic. Tesla's battery factory is really a Panasonic cell plant, with Panasonic employees, plus a packaging plant which assembles the cells into Tesla's packs.
qq66 11y ago
They must have done something right, because the Model S was deemed "the best car ever, by a huge margin" by several of the leading automotive journals. Is the source of all those benefits the electric drivetrain?
zaroth 11y ago
Yes, Tesla would love you to believe you can just slap these Panasonic batteries straight off Amazon together in order to power a car for a few hundred miles. Maybe this is why they stopped filing patents, it's better to get comments like this.
carlivar 11y ago
> Tesla made one major innovation You haven't ridden in a Tesla doing its self-driving thing, have you? I didn't care about Tesla until I rode in one doing this.
- superuser2 11y ago
  Other cars at similar price points were doing the same things years, sometimes a decade ago. Tesla's innovation was marketing them to techies on the Google self driving hype train rather than as safety features for the country club set.
  - carlivar 11y ago
    Which ones? I don't mean just staying in your lane. The car I was in stopped at a red light (technically just following the car in front of it, which also stopped). Though I haven't researched the history of this feature.
    - superuser2 11y ago
      Following distance aware cruise control came on the scene in 1999. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_cruise_control_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_cruise_control_syst... Collision avoidance systems similarly have a long history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_avoidance_system As I understand it, Tesla Autopilot is a collection of these ordinary luxury car features (lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, environment sensing/prediction and collision avoidance, integrated navigation) that with branding that recognizes them for what they are: the foundation of self-driving technology.
    - oblio 11y ago
      At least the Volvo V40 has that. And it's not a luxury car :)
      - dysfunction 11y ago
        > Volvo > not a luxury car
mblakele 11y ago
> Tesla made one major innovation. https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#tbm=pts&q=inassignee:%22Tesla+Motors,+Inc.%22 https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#tbm=pts&q=inassignee:%22Tesl... shows "about 731 results" — 549 of which mention batteries.
optforfon 11y ago
Finally someone talking some sense. The whole Elon cult of personality really clouds the discussion. (though don't get me wrong - I think he's a really cool guy) The Leaf has been around for a lot longer than Tesla and isn't just a fantasy luxury item only the very wealthy can afford). In my personal opinion I think their approach of working directly at the mass market price point will pay dividends in the long term. The free supercharging stations I think is a gimmick. Nothing is free - you get what you pay for. The price of that luxury is folded into the price of the car. I could be wrong - maybe it's a clever enough market tool to get people to pay up - but it'll probably be more practical for most people to rent a car for that long weekend drive.
- oxplot 11y ago
  "The free supercharging stations I think is a gimmick." "Free" seems mostly to be a matter of perception. Here is Australia, a lot of merchants, especially small grocery shops, charge you an extra 1.5% on purchases with credit card or have a minimum amount, say $10. As a customer, that bothers the living hell out of me. I am absolutely happy if they increase the prices of every item they have by 1.5% and don't bother me with credit card charges. I personally prefer to deal with a business that deals with complexities of running their business themselves, instead of passing it onto me, the customer.
jhayward 11y ago
Not since the roadster. I'll let Elon say it directly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9cfHGDoniU0#t=169s https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9c...

wnevets 11y ago

sounds like an apple product.

jakswa 11y ago

I'll go out on a limb and call BS on this. An Amazon link doesn't do a good job saying Tesla has no battery tech. That I'm aware of, Tesla has at least designed some thermal management around their battery cells, to ensure optimal operating temperature (and extending battery lifetime, compared to air-cooled batteries like the initial LEAFs). http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bltbattrygearbox-slide-1.jpg http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bltbattrygea...

mikeash 11y ago

I imagine you've read that Tesla uses 18650 cells in their batteries. And it's true! But what you may not realize is that 18650 is just a size and shape. 18650 just means the cell is 18mm in diameter and 65mm long. Tesla uses these cells, but the guts aren't the same as what you'll find in something from Amazon.

Gracana 11y ago
Many sources online say those are the batteries that Tesla uses. Panasonic NCR18650Bs, and before that, Panasonic NCR18650As. Same as you buy on Amazon. This guy did a teardown[0] and did a single-cell discharge test and got a little under 3Ah.[1] [0] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the-battery-pack.34934/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the... [1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the-battery-pack.34934/page-28#post-969995 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pics-info-inside-the...
- mikeash 11y ago
  What sources? A brief search turns up some speculation but nothing that appears at all informed, although I certainly could have missed it. I'm not surprised capacity is similar to what you'd find off the shelf, but I'd expect chemistry to be tweaked to account for the different environment and much higher need for longevity.
  - steve19 11y ago
    There has never been any indication they are using anything other than standard cells. These cells are produced for loads of industrial and consumer uses. The chemistry is well known. http://news.panasonic.com/global/topics/2011/6971.html http://news.panasonic.com/global/topics/2011/6971.html http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084682_what-goes-into-a-tesla-model-s-battery--and-what-it-may-cost http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084682_what-goes-into-a...
- Animats 11y ago
  Of course they're Panasonic. Tesla's battery factory is really a Panasonic cell plant, with Panasonic employees, plus a packaging plant which assembles the cells into Tesla's packs.

qq66 11y ago

They must have done something right, because the Model S was deemed "the best car ever, by a huge margin" by several of the leading automotive journals. Is the source of all those benefits the electric drivetrain?

zaroth 11y ago

Yes, Tesla would love you to believe you can just slap these Panasonic batteries straight off Amazon together in order to power a car for a few hundred miles. Maybe this is why they stopped filing patents, it's better to get comments like this.

carlivar 11y ago

> Tesla made one major innovation You haven't ridden in a Tesla doing its self-driving thing, have you? I didn't care about Tesla until I rode in one doing this.

superuser2 11y ago
Other cars at similar price points were doing the same things years, sometimes a decade ago. Tesla's innovation was marketing them to techies on the Google self driving hype train rather than as safety features for the country club set.
- carlivar 11y ago
  Which ones? I don't mean just staying in your lane. The car I was in stopped at a red light (technically just following the car in front of it, which also stopped). Though I haven't researched the history of this feature.
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Following distance aware cruise control came on the scene in 1999. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_cruise_control_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_cruise_control_syst... Collision avoidance systems similarly have a long history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_avoidance_system As I understand it, Tesla Autopilot is a collection of these ordinary luxury car features (lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, environment sensing/prediction and collision avoidance, integrated navigation) that with branding that recognizes them for what they are: the foundation of self-driving technology.
  - oblio 11y ago
    At least the Volvo V40 has that. And it's not a luxury car :)
    - dysfunction 11y ago
      > Volvo > not a luxury car

mblakele 11y ago

> Tesla made one major innovation. https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#tbm=pts&q=inassignee:%22Tesla+Motors,+Inc.%22 https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#tbm=pts&q=inassignee:%22Tesl... shows "about 731 results" — 549 of which mention batteries.

optforfon 11y ago

Finally someone talking some sense. The whole Elon cult of personality really clouds the discussion. (though don't get me wrong - I think he's a really cool guy) The Leaf has been around for a lot longer than Tesla and isn't just a fantasy luxury item only the very wealthy can afford). In my personal opinion I think their approach of working directly at the mass market price point will pay dividends in the long term. The free supercharging stations I think is a gimmick. Nothing is free - you get what you pay for. The price of that luxury is folded into the price of the car. I could be wrong - maybe it's a clever enough market tool to get people to pay up - but it'll probably be more practical for most people to rent a car for that long weekend drive.

oxplot 11y ago
"The free supercharging stations I think is a gimmick." "Free" seems mostly to be a matter of perception. Here is Australia, a lot of merchants, especially small grocery shops, charge you an extra 1.5% on purchases with credit card or have a minimum amount, say $10. As a customer, that bothers the living hell out of me. I am absolutely happy if they increase the prices of every item they have by 1.5% and don't bother me with credit card charges. I personally prefer to deal with a business that deals with complexities of running their business themselves, instead of passing it onto me, the customer.

jhayward 11y ago

Not since the roadster. I'll let Elon say it directly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9cfHGDoniU0#t=169s https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9c...