3 ms·

A 120V outlet trickle charging 3-4 miles per hour in the winter isn't going to get you home. The 240V outlet isn't going to help either, because people aren't g

A 120V outlet trickle charging 3-4 miles per hour in the winter isn't going to get you home. The 240V outlet isn't going to help either, because people aren't going to jump through hoops to justify a car that doesn't make the drives they need to make. If there's no charger network where they live, and they need that range, then they're not going to replace their car with the EV. If it's there, then Tesla's stations probably aren't the only ones available, because Tesla's network is relatively small, so it's not a huge problem for Chevy.

mikeash 11y ago
Yes, you can come up with a trip where this doesn't work. If you're going 120 miles and there isn't a Supercharger on the way and it's cold as hell outside and there's no easily accessible 240V outlet and you're not staying long enough for 120V to get the job done and you're not going out during your visit then, yes, you're going to have trouble. But we were talking about "most people," not "a tiny tiny proportion of the population that just happens to have the worst case scenario."
- lotharbot 11y ago
  If I purchase a vehicle, I'm likely to want it to work for every trip I want to take. It needs to work when I visit my brother in Oklahoma in the winter, and my friend's LAN party in Louisiana in the summer, and my in-laws in Oregon in the fall, and when I pick friends up from the airport (a 45-mile round trip) a few times a year, and on days when I have a bunch of scattered errands all across town. If a car sucks for even one of those trips, I'm going to be hesitant to buy it, and if there are two or three circumstances where it would suck, I'm crossing it off of my list. If I can come up with one trip where I'm going to need to sit there for two hours waiting for my car to charge, then the supercharger network, while not being actually useless on the whole, is not particularly convenient for me and therefore not really a strong selling point.
  - bryanlarsen 11y ago
    You sound like some of my neighbors who drive great big huge pickup trucks because they need something that can carry a full sheet of plywood, which they do once or twice a year. They spend thousands in extra gasoline and depreciation to save $50 in delivery charges.
    - lotharbot 11y ago
      If I have to put up with slow charging (and therefore perhaps take an extra vacation day), or have to rent a car or fly, for 2-3 trips, that's thousands of dollars every year, not a $50 delivery charge. If I have to seriously inconvenience my grandparents every time I go to visit them, that generates a lot of stress and potentially puts them at risk (grandpa is turning 95 this year; he doesn't travel well.) But I can buy a plug-in hybrid like the Chevy Volt for a couple grand less than the cheap Tesla (counting the same tax incentives), and it works for every trip. With the gas generator, it has a range of over 300 miles, and can refill about 280-290 miles of range at an ordinary gas station in 5 minutes. So I can spend a similar amount of money for a much more convenient experience by going with a hybrid and ignoring the superchargers entirely. Point being, the argument that the supercharger network covers "almost everyone" is flawed. There are a lot of people for whom it still misses at least some of their trips, where other types of EVs perform better, and missing some trips is far more relevant than you seem to give it credit for. Again, it's not like spending $thousands to avoid the occasional $50 delivery charge for plywood. It's spending basically the same amount on a different type of technology to avoid the occasional flight, car rental, or extra stress on the grandparents. The supercharger network will need to be much more dense before it gets to the point of being a major factor in Tesla's favor.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    I totally agree. It has to work for everything you want, not just almost everything. That's exactly why the Supercharger network is such a big deal. Its existence moves a huge segment of the population from "almost everything" to "everything." Yes, there's still a group of people where it doesn't do that. I totally accept that. But the person I'm replying to thinks that the Supercharger network doesn't matter outside of California because it's "so sparse as to be useless for most people." Which is far, far from the truth.
- ams6110 11y ago
  I can't think of many homes where the 240V is easily accessible. "I'm sorry Jane, would you mind terribly unhooking the clothes dryer and pulling it away from the wall so I can charge up my car while we visit."
  - mikeash 11y ago
    And what's the big deal with that? Oh dear, unplugging an appliance. Compare to: "I'm sorry Jane, would you mind terribly if I place a tank full of volatile and carcinogenic liquid next to your house?" Gas cars have their own problems, we're just used to them by now. EVs aren't perfect, and there are many legitimate scenarios where they aren't (yet) practical, but their problems get exaggerated beyond belief.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  I live in the Northeastern US and that situation would be 70% of my out of town trips, and I take a real lot of out of town trips. I don't think I'm very atypical, but maybe I am? I think the point is most people don't want to plan all of their activities around the needs of their car.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    My point is that most people's activities will fit fine within an EV's capabilities as-is, without having to think about it. I understand that there are people where this is not the case, and that some of the people commenting on this thread are in that group. I just don't think that it's the common case anymore.
vvanders 11y ago
I do almsot this exact route(296mi roundtrip) about once a week. Only reason at all I bought a Tesla is there's a Supercharger about 60mi from my house on that route. I can do the trip in good weather without the Supercharger. However with cold it becomes necessary. Other fast charging? Forget about it. All the CHAdeMO along the route(there is only two) are 40kw which would take me 3x longer to charge. Also the tend to be non-functional regualrly and only have 1-2 slots vs 8 for the Supercharger. The reason I started the parent thread is exactly this, once you own an EV with 120kw charging it changes everything for long trips.

mikeash 11y ago

Yes, you can come up with a trip where this doesn't work. If you're going 120 miles and there isn't a Supercharger on the way and it's cold as hell outside and there's no easily accessible 240V outlet and you're not staying long enough for 120V to get the job done and you're not going out during your visit then, yes, you're going to have trouble. But we were talking about "most people," not "a tiny tiny proportion of the population that just happens to have the worst case scenario."

lotharbot 11y ago
If I purchase a vehicle, I'm likely to want it to work for every trip I want to take. It needs to work when I visit my brother in Oklahoma in the winter, and my friend's LAN party in Louisiana in the summer, and my in-laws in Oregon in the fall, and when I pick friends up from the airport (a 45-mile round trip) a few times a year, and on days when I have a bunch of scattered errands all across town. If a car sucks for even one of those trips, I'm going to be hesitant to buy it, and if there are two or three circumstances where it would suck, I'm crossing it off of my list. If I can come up with one trip where I'm going to need to sit there for two hours waiting for my car to charge, then the supercharger network, while not being actually useless on the whole, is not particularly convenient for me and therefore not really a strong selling point.
- bryanlarsen 11y ago
  You sound like some of my neighbors who drive great big huge pickup trucks because they need something that can carry a full sheet of plywood, which they do once or twice a year. They spend thousands in extra gasoline and depreciation to save $50 in delivery charges.
  - lotharbot 11y ago
    If I have to put up with slow charging (and therefore perhaps take an extra vacation day), or have to rent a car or fly, for 2-3 trips, that's thousands of dollars every year, not a $50 delivery charge. If I have to seriously inconvenience my grandparents every time I go to visit them, that generates a lot of stress and potentially puts them at risk (grandpa is turning 95 this year; he doesn't travel well.) But I can buy a plug-in hybrid like the Chevy Volt for a couple grand less than the cheap Tesla (counting the same tax incentives), and it works for every trip. With the gas generator, it has a range of over 300 miles, and can refill about 280-290 miles of range at an ordinary gas station in 5 minutes. So I can spend a similar amount of money for a much more convenient experience by going with a hybrid and ignoring the superchargers entirely. Point being, the argument that the supercharger network covers "almost everyone" is flawed. There are a lot of people for whom it still misses at least some of their trips, where other types of EVs perform better, and missing some trips is far more relevant than you seem to give it credit for. Again, it's not like spending $thousands to avoid the occasional $50 delivery charge for plywood. It's spending basically the same amount on a different type of technology to avoid the occasional flight, car rental, or extra stress on the grandparents. The supercharger network will need to be much more dense before it gets to the point of being a major factor in Tesla's favor.
- mikeash 11y ago
  I totally agree. It has to work for everything you want, not just almost everything. That's exactly why the Supercharger network is such a big deal. Its existence moves a huge segment of the population from "almost everything" to "everything." Yes, there's still a group of people where it doesn't do that. I totally accept that. But the person I'm replying to thinks that the Supercharger network doesn't matter outside of California because it's "so sparse as to be useless for most people." Which is far, far from the truth.
ams6110 11y ago
I can't think of many homes where the 240V is easily accessible. "I'm sorry Jane, would you mind terribly unhooking the clothes dryer and pulling it away from the wall so I can charge up my car while we visit."
- mikeash 11y ago
  And what's the big deal with that? Oh dear, unplugging an appliance. Compare to: "I'm sorry Jane, would you mind terribly if I place a tank full of volatile and carcinogenic liquid next to your house?" Gas cars have their own problems, we're just used to them by now. EVs aren't perfect, and there are many legitimate scenarios where they aren't (yet) practical, but their problems get exaggerated beyond belief.
nommm-nommm 11y ago
I live in the Northeastern US and that situation would be 70% of my out of town trips, and I take a real lot of out of town trips. I don't think I'm very atypical, but maybe I am? I think the point is most people don't want to plan all of their activities around the needs of their car.
- mikeash 11y ago
  My point is that most people's activities will fit fine within an EV's capabilities as-is, without having to think about it. I understand that there are people where this is not the case, and that some of the people commenting on this thread are in that group. I just don't think that it's the common case anymore.

vvanders 11y ago

I do almsot this exact route(296mi roundtrip) about once a week. Only reason at all I bought a Tesla is there's a Supercharger about 60mi from my house on that route. I can do the trip in good weather without the Supercharger. However with cold it becomes necessary. Other fast charging? Forget about it. All the CHAdeMO along the route(there is only two) are 40kw which would take me 3x longer to charge. Also the tend to be non-functional regualrly and only have 1-2 slots vs 8 for the Supercharger. The reason I started the parent thread is exactly this, once you own an EV with 120kw charging it changes everything for long trips.