5 ms·

Six of one. Chesterton's fence. The law exists for a reason, and the law should be enforced or changed, not selectively ignored.

by tamana 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago
If Chesterton had seen modern laws (and he was already quite vocal for the proliferation of BS laws back in his day) he would never have brought forward his "fence" argument. Really, a huge numbers of modern laws and restrictions are as far removed from utility as possible. And unlike in "Chesterton's fence" case, it's not like they are old and we don't know why they come up with them back in the day. Quite the opposite. We DO know why the come with them, and for a lot of them, we witnessed lobby groups and special interests, concerned citizens "think of the children", etc press for them -- and it has been mostly BS.
- arkades 11y ago
  You are speaking in broad generalities about a specific and narrow topic. Could you please clarify what public health / food sanitation laws you feel are the one-sided product of lobbyists and special interests and have no "Chesterton's Fence"-type value to speak of?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Was mostly referring to the zoning restrictions the grant-parent mentioned, here are some examples: https://mises.org/library/zoning-laws-destroy-communities https://mises.org/library/zoning-laws-destroy-communities http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/zoning-laws-and-the-rise-of-economic-inequality/417360/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/zoning-l... http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/12/17/best-of-blog-the-crazy-face-of-zoning.html http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/12/17/best-of-blog-t... Though the situation and intent of lots of these is much worse, "City of Quartz" (book on LA's development) is quite illuminating for example. But lots of bad food laws too, e.g: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/apr/15/illegal-food-cheese-us-mimolette http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/apr... We have a share of BS laws in Europe too, that killed small producers with "safety regulations" and requirements designed so that only big buck corps can afford them -- despite having no issues whatsoever with said producers' products for centuries up until the 1990s or so when the laws got drafted...
    - arkades 11y ago
      I can't speak to the zoning restrictions meaningfully as it's outside my area of expertise. But as to the food law example: Well, that's not an example of a lobbyist-sponsored food law. The FDA has old regs on the books about the maximum number of mites/cheese sample, apparently written for "cheeses at large," to limit the dissemination of contaminated food, rather than one specific type of intentionally mite-ridden cheese. A single instance of a border check resulted in an imported shipment was recorded. In that article, the border control "wouldn't specify what the safe level was." It took 30 seconds to find that the regulatory level is 6 mites / cc, and that the samples they examined exceeded that, some by up to ~660x. This was not part of a broader law or effort on the behalf of the FDA, and future shipments of the cheese got through import checks just fine. Literally, the media and the media alone made up a storm in a teacup over an "attack" on small oversea dairies. Do you have any other bad food laws in mind?
Alex3917 11y ago
> The law exists for a reason, and the law should be enforced or changed, not selectively ignored. Except for that in practice the only way you can get the law changed is if you can get enough people to break it.
- username223 11y ago
  The obvious corollary to your statement is "in practice the only way you can affirm the law is to throw enough people in jail for breaking it." So do we throw more people who break food safety laws in jail, or pat them on the back?
  - Alex3917 11y ago
    Not really. How many Uber customers went to jail? There are tens of thousands of laws, but almost everyone in prison is there for breaking the same 20 or so.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Six of one. Chesterton's fence. The law exists for a reason, and the law should be enforced or changed, not selectively ignored.

by tamana 11y ago

Six of one. Chesterton's fence. The law exists for a reason, and the law should be enforced or changed, not selectively ignored.

coldtea 11y ago

If Chesterton had seen modern laws (and he was already quite vocal for the proliferation of BS laws back in his day) he would never have brought forward his "fence" argument. Really, a huge numbers of modern laws and restrictions are as far removed from utility as possible. And unlike in "Chesterton's fence" case, it's not like they are old and we don't know why they come up with them back in the day. Quite the opposite. We DO know why the come with them, and for a lot of them, we witnessed lobby groups and special interests, concerned citizens "think of the children", etc press for them -- and it has been mostly BS.

arkades 11y ago
You are speaking in broad generalities about a specific and narrow topic. Could you please clarify what public health / food sanitation laws you feel are the one-sided product of lobbyists and special interests and have no "Chesterton's Fence"-type value to speak of?
- coldtea 11y ago
  Was mostly referring to the zoning restrictions the grant-parent mentioned, here are some examples: https://mises.org/library/zoning-laws-destroy-communities https://mises.org/library/zoning-laws-destroy-communities http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/zoning-laws-and-the-rise-of-economic-inequality/417360/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/zoning-l... http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/12/17/best-of-blog-the-crazy-face-of-zoning.html http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/12/17/best-of-blog-t... Though the situation and intent of lots of these is much worse, "City of Quartz" (book on LA's development) is quite illuminating for example. But lots of bad food laws too, e.g: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/apr/15/illegal-food-cheese-us-mimolette http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/apr... We have a share of BS laws in Europe too, that killed small producers with "safety regulations" and requirements designed so that only big buck corps can afford them -- despite having no issues whatsoever with said producers' products for centuries up until the 1990s or so when the laws got drafted...
  - arkades 11y ago
    I can't speak to the zoning restrictions meaningfully as it's outside my area of expertise. But as to the food law example: Well, that's not an example of a lobbyist-sponsored food law. The FDA has old regs on the books about the maximum number of mites/cheese sample, apparently written for "cheeses at large," to limit the dissemination of contaminated food, rather than one specific type of intentionally mite-ridden cheese. A single instance of a border check resulted in an imported shipment was recorded. In that article, the border control "wouldn't specify what the safe level was." It took 30 seconds to find that the regulatory level is 6 mites / cc, and that the samples they examined exceeded that, some by up to ~660x. This was not part of a broader law or effort on the behalf of the FDA, and future shipments of the cheese got through import checks just fine. Literally, the media and the media alone made up a storm in a teacup over an "attack" on small oversea dairies. Do you have any other bad food laws in mind?

Alex3917 11y ago

> The law exists for a reason, and the law should be enforced or changed, not selectively ignored. Except for that in practice the only way you can get the law changed is if you can get enough people to break it.

username223 11y ago
The obvious corollary to your statement is "in practice the only way you can affirm the law is to throw enough people in jail for breaking it." So do we throw more people who break food safety laws in jail, or pat them on the back?
- Alex3917 11y ago
  Not really. How many Uber customers went to jail? There are tens of thousands of laws, but almost everyone in prison is there for breaking the same 20 or so.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]