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One thing that always seems missing from these comparison articles is the Supercharger network. It makes such a huge difference, I just don't see how CCS catch

One thing that always seems missing from these comparison articles is the Supercharger network. It makes such a huge difference, I just don't see how CCS catches up(not to mention that there's no long term planning around it).

JulianMorrison 11y ago
I'm guessing at some point they're gonna realize they have to come to Tesla cap in hand and ask to plug into theirs. Tesla might say yes. They want EVs to win, not just their particular brand. They're already giving away the juice. My guess is they'd just ask the other companies to shoulder their share of the bill.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  I doubt it, there's ~4,000 plugs right now, the Tesla "experience" gets watered down when you have to wait for the plebes to charge their POS daily driver. I wouldn't be real shocked if the Model 3 has to pay to charge. Not only because of the electricity cost, to keep the stations available.
- imglorp 11y ago
  Do we know if the fast charge power connectors going to be compatible? There's an industry standard SAE J1772 which Tesla at least has adapters to support.
  - vvanders 11y ago
    CCS and CHAdeMO have similar voltages so I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla can use them(they already have an adapter for CHAdeMO).
ams6110 11y ago
Unless you specifically want a pure EV, a hybrid with a gasoline-powered generator onboard is going to be more practical. I have a different perspective because there are no superchargers within 50 miles, and in fact for the most common longer drives I make there are no SuperChargers within range of the vehicle. So they are a non-factor in any consideration I would have in deciding on a possible EV purchase.
- robmcm 11y ago
  300,000 new Tesla's on the road should boost that number, however I would like to see a Tesla range extending roof box with a small engine in, however unlikely.
dangrossman 11y ago
There are no Superchargers near me, or anywhere near my route to family on the holidays. Tesla's network outside of California is so sparse as to be useless for much of the country. Here's the map of Tesla's 613 supercharging stations (right) versus 27000 public non-Tesla chargers (left): http://i.imgur.com/Ktg8h3W.png http://i.imgur.com/Ktg8h3W.png So the fact that Tesla has no good answer to remote charging for most of the US hasn't stopped it from selling cars outside of California. You're more likely to have a non-Tesla quick charger on any given route than a Supercharger, and if you own a non-Tesla EV/hybrid, you'll probably be able to use it "out of the box", where a Tesla will need a $450 plug adapter. If I want to drive west, I won't run into a Tesla Supercharger for about 250 miles -- outside the Model 3's range -- but I'll pass 9 quick chargers from other operators on the way. Long-term to reach millions of EV unit sales a year, car makers -might- need a better answer to charging away from home, if other technology and social changes don't obviate the need. In those coming years, Blink/Chargepoint/etc have lots of time to continue expanding their networks -- including adding more quick chargers, more plug types, and more reliability -- and can likely do it faster than Tesla or any other single company can on their own.
- vvanders 11y ago
  Those chargers top out at 45kw thought(real world, I have the CHAdeMO adapter). Superchargers are 120kW which makes a huge difference when you have more than 100mi of range.
  - dangrossman 11y ago
    Both CHAdeMO and SAE Combo can do 100kW+. They're installed at lower amps because the only customers plugging in are Leafs and hybrids that don't need that capacity yet, not because the standards don't allow higher power. The supply will come to meet the demand when it actually shows up. A 45kW charger that exists on your route is better than a Supercharger that doesn't, too.
    - vvanders 11y ago
      Yup, they can do that, but there's not a single one installed in the US and I doubt there will be when the Bolt is released. Also now you've got a bunch of chargers installed and you don't know which ones are 45kW, 60kW and 100kW. With Superchargers you know that you'll have 120kW chargers at each location.
mdorazio 11y ago
As maxerickson points out below, the Supercharger network is highly likely to be completely overwhelmed by the time Model 3 gets into the hands of most people. The popular stations near me in LA are often very close to capacity already (even after expansions), and that's with just 70,000ish cars on the road. With another 70k Model S/X and 200k Model 3 roaming the streets, either Tesla is going to have to start charging to use the stations, or people are going to be waiting in line. And waiting in line means probably adding another 20 minutes to an already long fill-up. Either way, the "huge difference" needs to be tempered against reality because the experience today will not be the same as the experience 3-4 years from now.
- bryanlarsen 11y ago
  Making superchargers free was a really stupid move on Tesla's part, IMO. Humans often do really irrational things to save money, especially if they're receiving something for free. I've seen people wait in line for half an hour to save 50 cents on gasoline. Why not charge market rate, exactly the same as if you charged it at home? Then you wouldn't get people charging up at the supercharger purely for cost reasons, and who would complain about being able to fill up your car for $5? Edit: I thought Musk said that model 3 supercharger access would be free, but perhaps he just said that there would be access and didn't say it would be free? The introduction of the 3 would be a good time to start charging for supercharger access. Free access could be considered a perk of the high end models, and model 3 users are probably more price conscious and likely to abuse free access to chargers.
  - greglindahl 11y ago
    Tesla charged S/X owners $2,000 for "free" supercharging for life. Based on my first 3 years of S ownership, Tesla's making a lot of margin from me on that part of the car. I'm OK with that, I love having low-friction fast charging on long trips.
    - bryanlarsen 11y ago
      Currently on the Canadian configurator for the S, free supercharging is a standard feature. I thought the only car that didn't include supercharging was the P40, which they cancelled and never delivered (delivering instead software limited P60's to those who preordered the P40). So when they charged $2000, what happened if you didn't pay the $2000? No access to supercharging, or paid access to supercharging? Charging a flat rate is even worse than giving it away, IMO. Many people have the mindset that if they had to pay for it, they're going to make sure they get full value for their dollars.

JulianMorrison 11y ago

I'm guessing at some point they're gonna realize they have to come to Tesla cap in hand and ask to plug into theirs. Tesla might say yes. They want EVs to win, not just their particular brand. They're already giving away the juice. My guess is they'd just ask the other companies to shoulder their share of the bill.

maxerickson 11y ago
I doubt it, there's ~4,000 plugs right now, the Tesla "experience" gets watered down when you have to wait for the plebes to charge their POS daily driver. I wouldn't be real shocked if the Model 3 has to pay to charge. Not only because of the electricity cost, to keep the stations available.
imglorp 11y ago
Do we know if the fast charge power connectors going to be compatible? There's an industry standard SAE J1772 which Tesla at least has adapters to support.
- vvanders 11y ago
  CCS and CHAdeMO have similar voltages so I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla can use them(they already have an adapter for CHAdeMO).

ams6110 11y ago

Unless you specifically want a pure EV, a hybrid with a gasoline-powered generator onboard is going to be more practical. I have a different perspective because there are no superchargers within 50 miles, and in fact for the most common longer drives I make there are no SuperChargers within range of the vehicle. So they are a non-factor in any consideration I would have in deciding on a possible EV purchase.

robmcm 11y ago
300,000 new Tesla's on the road should boost that number, however I would like to see a Tesla range extending roof box with a small engine in, however unlikely.

dangrossman 11y ago

There are no Superchargers near me, or anywhere near my route to family on the holidays. Tesla's network outside of California is so sparse as to be useless for much of the country. Here's the map of Tesla's 613 supercharging stations (right) versus 27000 public non-Tesla chargers (left): http://i.imgur.com/Ktg8h3W.png http://i.imgur.com/Ktg8h3W.png So the fact that Tesla has no good answer to remote charging for most of the US hasn't stopped it from selling cars outside of California. You're more likely to have a non-Tesla quick charger on any given route than a Supercharger, and if you own a non-Tesla EV/hybrid, you'll probably be able to use it "out of the box", where a Tesla will need a $450 plug adapter. If I want to drive west, I won't run into a Tesla Supercharger for about 250 miles -- outside the Model 3's range -- but I'll pass 9 quick chargers from other operators on the way. Long-term to reach millions of EV unit sales a year, car makers -might- need a better answer to charging away from home, if other technology and social changes don't obviate the need. In those coming years, Blink/Chargepoint/etc have lots of time to continue expanding their networks -- including adding more quick chargers, more plug types, and more reliability -- and can likely do it faster than Tesla or any other single company can on their own.

vvanders 11y ago
Those chargers top out at 45kw thought(real world, I have the CHAdeMO adapter). Superchargers are 120kW which makes a huge difference when you have more than 100mi of range.
- dangrossman 11y ago
  Both CHAdeMO and SAE Combo can do 100kW+. They're installed at lower amps because the only customers plugging in are Leafs and hybrids that don't need that capacity yet, not because the standards don't allow higher power. The supply will come to meet the demand when it actually shows up. A 45kW charger that exists on your route is better than a Supercharger that doesn't, too.
  - vvanders 11y ago
    Yup, they can do that, but there's not a single one installed in the US and I doubt there will be when the Bolt is released. Also now you've got a bunch of chargers installed and you don't know which ones are 45kW, 60kW and 100kW. With Superchargers you know that you'll have 120kW chargers at each location.

mdorazio 11y ago

As maxerickson points out below, the Supercharger network is highly likely to be completely overwhelmed by the time Model 3 gets into the hands of most people. The popular stations near me in LA are often very close to capacity already (even after expansions), and that's with just 70,000ish cars on the road. With another 70k Model S/X and 200k Model 3 roaming the streets, either Tesla is going to have to start charging to use the stations, or people are going to be waiting in line. And waiting in line means probably adding another 20 minutes to an already long fill-up. Either way, the "huge difference" needs to be tempered against reality because the experience today will not be the same as the experience 3-4 years from now.

bryanlarsen 11y ago
Making superchargers free was a really stupid move on Tesla's part, IMO. Humans often do really irrational things to save money, especially if they're receiving something for free. I've seen people wait in line for half an hour to save 50 cents on gasoline. Why not charge market rate, exactly the same as if you charged it at home? Then you wouldn't get people charging up at the supercharger purely for cost reasons, and who would complain about being able to fill up your car for $5? Edit: I thought Musk said that model 3 supercharger access would be free, but perhaps he just said that there would be access and didn't say it would be free? The introduction of the 3 would be a good time to start charging for supercharger access. Free access could be considered a perk of the high end models, and model 3 users are probably more price conscious and likely to abuse free access to chargers.
- greglindahl 11y ago
  Tesla charged S/X owners $2,000 for "free" supercharging for life. Based on my first 3 years of S ownership, Tesla's making a lot of margin from me on that part of the car. I'm OK with that, I love having low-friction fast charging on long trips.
  - bryanlarsen 11y ago
    Currently on the Canadian configurator for the S, free supercharging is a standard feature. I thought the only car that didn't include supercharging was the P40, which they cancelled and never delivered (delivering instead software limited P60's to those who preordered the P40). So when they charged $2000, what happened if you didn't pay the $2000? No access to supercharging, or paid access to supercharging? Charging a flat rate is even worse than giving it away, IMO. Many people have the mindset that if they had to pay for it, they're going to make sure they get full value for their dollars.