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I know this is subjective and shouldn't matter, but I think the Bolt is ugly. In fact out of all the non-Tesla EVs the only one I don't find ugly is the Fiat 5

I know this is subjective and shouldn't matter, but I think the Bolt is ugly. In fact out of all the non-Tesla EVs the only one I don't find ugly is the Fiat 500e which is only sold in CA (and now Oregon) as a compliance car and its own CEO hates it. It is a nice little EV though. All of this also ignores the coming autonomous cars which I think are going to be here sooner than people realize (maybe this is the big part 2 of the model 3 reveal). When that happens I'm not confident the existing car companies will be able to compete - they're desperately trying to acquire the necessary tech now, but it's a little late.

lotharbot 11y ago
do you include hybrid EVs like the Volt and Prius in your "ugly" list? Personally, I love my Volt. I only use gasoline on rare occasions -- a couple of out-of-state trips per year -- but don't have to make long stops (30 minutes is long for me) at charging stations along the way. And I think it's a pretty cool looking car. But then, I'm over 30, so what do I know about cool?
- jadei 11y ago
  While we are talking hybrids, I love my ford fusion hybrid. Looks exactly like the gas fusions and has all the same options (well besides wheels and engines). Some owners even take off the hybrid badges on theirs.
  - sremani 11y ago
    There is a little bit of nuance you might have missed here, we are mostly discussing Plugins, and Prius has a plugin. Ford Fusion Energi is the worst thing that can happen to Plugins and Fusion Hybrid is a good car but does not belong in the discussion here.
- shifter 11y ago
  A typical time constant for a supercharger stop is 15 minutes.
  - lotharbot 11y ago
    according to https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger a 30-minute charge will give the vehicle (specifically the model S; they don't have stats up for the 3 yet) 170 miles of range. A 15-minute charge would be a little more than half of that, but not much. Stopping for 15 minutes every ~80 miles would be a moderate inconvenience.
    - Gibbon1 11y ago
      I have this rule for timing out how long trips take. Unless it's just me, for every pee and gas stop add 20-30 minutes. If it is just me then it's about 5-10 minutes. I have no idea why the disparity. But it's consistent. Stops for food are at least 1 hour. If you can stop for food and charge the car at the same time a 200 mile range wouldn't be an issue for most people. All this leads up to; when you see significant numbers of electric cars on the road you'll see roadside businesses start to cater to them. That model isn't bad, customer parks, plugs in the car and goes in for snax and coffee. 20 minutes later the smart phone dings saying the car is good go. That's different than having stand around a gas station for 20 minutes.
      - lotharbot 11y ago
        my road trips involve about a 10-12 minute stop every 250-300 miles, and a longer meal stop of about 35-40 minutes if we go over 700 miles for the day. That's with my wife and our six-year-old son. I've traveled with lots of friends who are the same way, and a few people who make much longer stops like the ones you describe. Who is more representative of "most people"? I have no idea. But I wouldn't want to stop for 15 minutes every 80 miles, or 30 minutes every 170 miles.
        mikeash 11y ago
        I'm impressed that you can go four hours between stops with a wife and kid in the car. I think most people will find the stops to be more than they're used to, but not onerous. You'll probably hit 4-5 chargers in a day of driving. If you can time it right, two of those will coincide with meal breaks, so you're looking at 2-3 where you hit the bathroom, grab a snack, and maybe have to wait a bit on the car. If you make big trips once or twice a year then it can easily be a net win over a gas car. The gas car wins on long trips, but requires ~15 minutes/month at gas stations even when you're just local. In my year of Tesla ownership, I'd say I've lost about two hours total waiting for a charge, and gained about that much not going to gas stations.
- bendbro 11y ago
  I've never liked them either. In Forza I had a volt, but only so I could cover it in vulgar graphics. I think what bothers me is that they don't look like normal cars. Their shape is closer to a toaster than a sports car, they have small little plastic looking wheels, and smiling face headlight and bumper styling. I absolutely think cars should move away from what they are now toward something more like an appliance, but I won't enjoy it. But who am I to talk anyway, my current car is terrible.
- ams6110 11y ago
  The Volt isn't too bad. Not great. The Prius is definitely ugly. The Tesla Model 3 looks better than either, from what I've seen, but doesn't stand out from anything else from similar priced cars from BMW, Audi, Lexus, or Mercedes. It's all very subjective however.
  - sirkneeland 11y ago
    The Prius is ugly, the new Prius, doubly so. I like the 1st gen volt though. It's sort of chunky-yet-handsome from certain angles, esp rear 3/4.
- Rafert 11y ago
  Yep to both. The Opel Ampera (Euro version of the Volt) looks a bit better imo. I'd rather have a Toyota Auris.
TickleSteve 11y ago
Agree, the Bolt is ugly, its obviously on the cheap end of the market. The Tesla on the other hand seems much more design focussed and premium. (IMO of course).
- dlp211 11y ago
  The demo'd model 3 screams civic to me. Not that there is anything wrong with the civic, but it doesn't scream 3-series/A4/c-class to me. Also, the interior is completely bland. That all said, I will wait until there is a final product to pass judgment in regards to styling.
  - semi-extrinsic 11y ago
    What they should've done with the model 3 to make it look good and much more usable/practical is a shooting brake style. But that would kill their aero, and thus kill the range. Which is a shame, as otherwise they wouldn't have a trunk opening too small to fit a guinea pig cage [1] in order to accomodate passengers taller than five feet in the back. It's kind of shocking how tied up to a specific roofline profile Tesla is, in order to meet range/price expectations. They'll likely never be able to put out an estate car without sacrifising range or making it obscenely expensive. Also, wtf is up with everyone comparing the model 3 to A4/c-class/3-series? Current best estimates I can find put the model 3 at 5-10 inches shorter than either of those, and with a smaller interior (obvious just from looking at pictures, the model 3 interior roof profile is a lot less "square" than ze Germans, again for aero reasons). I think Mazda 3, but with a smaller trunk, is a better comparison. (Yes, I know the model 3 has a "frunk" to compensate.) I also think Tesla are being deliberately secretive with the external dimensions, to keep people thinking it's bigger than it actually is. [1] http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--uaROKJL5--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ei5n4agxis4bs0i56tps.jpg http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--uaROKJL5...
deleted 11y ago
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agumonkey 11y ago
The Bolt has its own aesthetic, less suave, glamorous, beautiful (whatever those means in non subjective settings) than the Model 3 for instance. Yet I cannot help looking at the Model 3 as a shrinked lo-fi luxury Model S which makes me cringe more than the 'ugly' bolt. The aesthetics fit the market better somehow.
- rhizome 11y ago
  To me it looks essentially like a Mazda 3 with shades of the BMW i3. Fairly generic.
  - mdorazio 11y ago
    Exactly this. Saw a new Mazda 3 4-door in the parking lot on Friday and did a double-take to see if someone had gotten their hands on a Model 3 test car. To me the design is... OK.
- savagej 11y ago
  The Bolt looks like a $15k econobox deathtrap. The Model 3 looks like a 60k Italian sedan made in CA. But you cringe at that... yeah
  - sgift 11y ago
    The model 3 looks like something which started trying to look like a 60k Italian sedan but was redesigned everytime someone said "you know .. that corner offends me" or "I don't like that edge" until you got something where almost no one can say "I don't like that part", but lack anything special or interesting. All is round, round and .. round.
PuffinBlue 11y ago
I have to completely disagree with you. I think it's actually a great looking little car. I find it interesting how such an item can bring out great differences in tastes, like ours. Additionally, I'm sure that aesthetics will actually make a big difference to any potential buyer and so do matter a lot, so I think you are right to voice a subjective opinion on how it looks.
- trgn 11y ago
  Little cars can get away with a lot. Sloppy lines, blocky stance, squat haunches, fat lights, goofy plastics ... that kind of stuff always looks horrible on larger cars. But small cars get away with it, sometimes even with style, for some reason.
- stcredzero 11y ago
  I have to completely disagree with you. I think it's actually a great looking little car. Me too. I rather like the Fiat 500e better than the Tesla for styling. I'm going to put down the deposit for a Tesla Model 3, though.
cmurf 11y ago
Why would autonomous cars be here sooner than Google thinks? Their talk is a fairly slow roll out of selective autonomic-like features in specific contexts. They've said probably 15 years before there's full autonomy in cities. And outside of cities it'll still be a desert. Full autonomy is very challenging. More standardization among the manufacturers is needed, like the recent braking standard they've announced, but also that includes local governments to stop doing crazy things like different sign shapes, colors, fonts, messages, even vertical vs horizontal traffic lights. There's a lot of work to be done by more than just the car manufacturers.
- mdorazio 11y ago
  Do you have a source for the 15 years number? I keep seeing people on HN saying 15-30 years, probably based on that widely misrepresented SXSW talk, and that just doesn't match up to the state of the technology or progress on the legal/regulatory front. Robotaxis will be in some California cities around 5 years from now unless some major setback happens. Here's a report that summarizes some of the sentiment I see in the industry [1]. Remember: there are already 100% fully autonomous vehicles roaming real roads in Silicon Valley. 5 years is a very long time to shrink and improve sensors, learn from real-world driving experiences, and beef up the software. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/report-10-million-self-driving-cars-will-be-on-the-road-by-2020-2015-5-6 http://www.businessinsider.com/report-10-million-self-drivin...
  - ghaff 11y ago
    Autonomous cars with drivers ready to take control because that's their job. Figure 50 years for robo-taxis.
    - mdorazio 11y ago
      Again, do you have a source for that, or at least some detailed reasoning? In a notorious story, a police officer pulled over a Google Car with no driver in it [1]. That was last year, on a real street. Completely driverless cars are already here, they just need to be refined over the next few years to be ready for wider adoption. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/us/google-self-driving-car-pulled-over/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/us/google-self-driving-car-pul...
serge2k 11y ago
500e looks super ugly from the front. This looks ugly too. I'm undecided on the model 3.
qq66 11y ago
For a luxury car, looks matter a lot for the success of the vehicle, but for family/utility cars, I don't think they matter that much. Minivans are horrendous looking but popular for their utility.

lotharbot 11y ago

do you include hybrid EVs like the Volt and Prius in your "ugly" list? Personally, I love my Volt. I only use gasoline on rare occasions -- a couple of out-of-state trips per year -- but don't have to make long stops (30 minutes is long for me) at charging stations along the way. And I think it's a pretty cool looking car. But then, I'm over 30, so what do I know about cool?

jadei 11y ago
While we are talking hybrids, I love my ford fusion hybrid. Looks exactly like the gas fusions and has all the same options (well besides wheels and engines). Some owners even take off the hybrid badges on theirs.
- sremani 11y ago
  There is a little bit of nuance you might have missed here, we are mostly discussing Plugins, and Prius has a plugin. Ford Fusion Energi is the worst thing that can happen to Plugins and Fusion Hybrid is a good car but does not belong in the discussion here.
shifter 11y ago
A typical time constant for a supercharger stop is 15 minutes.
- lotharbot 11y ago
  according to https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger a 30-minute charge will give the vehicle (specifically the model S; they don't have stats up for the 3 yet) 170 miles of range. A 15-minute charge would be a little more than half of that, but not much. Stopping for 15 minutes every ~80 miles would be a moderate inconvenience.
  - Gibbon1 11y ago
    I have this rule for timing out how long trips take. Unless it's just me, for every pee and gas stop add 20-30 minutes. If it is just me then it's about 5-10 minutes. I have no idea why the disparity. But it's consistent. Stops for food are at least 1 hour. If you can stop for food and charge the car at the same time a 200 mile range wouldn't be an issue for most people. All this leads up to; when you see significant numbers of electric cars on the road you'll see roadside businesses start to cater to them. That model isn't bad, customer parks, plugs in the car and goes in for snax and coffee. 20 minutes later the smart phone dings saying the car is good go. That's different than having stand around a gas station for 20 minutes.
    - lotharbot 11y ago
      my road trips involve about a 10-12 minute stop every 250-300 miles, and a longer meal stop of about 35-40 minutes if we go over 700 miles for the day. That's with my wife and our six-year-old son. I've traveled with lots of friends who are the same way, and a few people who make much longer stops like the ones you describe. Who is more representative of "most people"? I have no idea. But I wouldn't want to stop for 15 minutes every 80 miles, or 30 minutes every 170 miles.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        I'm impressed that you can go four hours between stops with a wife and kid in the car. I think most people will find the stops to be more than they're used to, but not onerous. You'll probably hit 4-5 chargers in a day of driving. If you can time it right, two of those will coincide with meal breaks, so you're looking at 2-3 where you hit the bathroom, grab a snack, and maybe have to wait a bit on the car. If you make big trips once or twice a year then it can easily be a net win over a gas car. The gas car wins on long trips, but requires ~15 minutes/month at gas stations even when you're just local. In my year of Tesla ownership, I'd say I've lost about two hours total waiting for a charge, and gained about that much not going to gas stations.
bendbro 11y ago
I've never liked them either. In Forza I had a volt, but only so I could cover it in vulgar graphics. I think what bothers me is that they don't look like normal cars. Their shape is closer to a toaster than a sports car, they have small little plastic looking wheels, and smiling face headlight and bumper styling. I absolutely think cars should move away from what they are now toward something more like an appliance, but I won't enjoy it. But who am I to talk anyway, my current car is terrible.
ams6110 11y ago
The Volt isn't too bad. Not great. The Prius is definitely ugly. The Tesla Model 3 looks better than either, from what I've seen, but doesn't stand out from anything else from similar priced cars from BMW, Audi, Lexus, or Mercedes. It's all very subjective however.
- sirkneeland 11y ago
  The Prius is ugly, the new Prius, doubly so. I like the 1st gen volt though. It's sort of chunky-yet-handsome from certain angles, esp rear 3/4.
Rafert 11y ago
Yep to both. The Opel Ampera (Euro version of the Volt) looks a bit better imo. I'd rather have a Toyota Auris.

TickleSteve 11y ago

Agree, the Bolt is ugly, its obviously on the cheap end of the market. The Tesla on the other hand seems much more design focussed and premium. (IMO of course).

dlp211 11y ago
The demo'd model 3 screams civic to me. Not that there is anything wrong with the civic, but it doesn't scream 3-series/A4/c-class to me. Also, the interior is completely bland. That all said, I will wait until there is a final product to pass judgment in regards to styling.
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  What they should've done with the model 3 to make it look good and much more usable/practical is a shooting brake style. But that would kill their aero, and thus kill the range. Which is a shame, as otherwise they wouldn't have a trunk opening too small to fit a guinea pig cage [1] in order to accomodate passengers taller than five feet in the back. It's kind of shocking how tied up to a specific roofline profile Tesla is, in order to meet range/price expectations. They'll likely never be able to put out an estate car without sacrifising range or making it obscenely expensive. Also, wtf is up with everyone comparing the model 3 to A4/c-class/3-series? Current best estimates I can find put the model 3 at 5-10 inches shorter than either of those, and with a smaller interior (obvious just from looking at pictures, the model 3 interior roof profile is a lot less "square" than ze Germans, again for aero reasons). I think Mazda 3, but with a smaller trunk, is a better comparison. (Yes, I know the model 3 has a "frunk" to compensate.) I also think Tesla are being deliberately secretive with the external dimensions, to keep people thinking it's bigger than it actually is. [1] http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--uaROKJL5--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ei5n4agxis4bs0i56tps.jpg http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--uaROKJL5...

deleted 11y ago

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agumonkey 11y ago

The Bolt has its own aesthetic, less suave, glamorous, beautiful (whatever those means in non subjective settings) than the Model 3 for instance. Yet I cannot help looking at the Model 3 as a shrinked lo-fi luxury Model S which makes me cringe more than the 'ugly' bolt. The aesthetics fit the market better somehow.

rhizome 11y ago
To me it looks essentially like a Mazda 3 with shades of the BMW i3. Fairly generic.
- mdorazio 11y ago
  Exactly this. Saw a new Mazda 3 4-door in the parking lot on Friday and did a double-take to see if someone had gotten their hands on a Model 3 test car. To me the design is... OK.
savagej 11y ago
The Bolt looks like a $15k econobox deathtrap. The Model 3 looks like a 60k Italian sedan made in CA. But you cringe at that... yeah
- sgift 11y ago
  The model 3 looks like something which started trying to look like a 60k Italian sedan but was redesigned everytime someone said "you know .. that corner offends me" or "I don't like that edge" until you got something where almost no one can say "I don't like that part", but lack anything special or interesting. All is round, round and .. round.

PuffinBlue 11y ago

I have to completely disagree with you. I think it's actually a great looking little car. I find it interesting how such an item can bring out great differences in tastes, like ours. Additionally, I'm sure that aesthetics will actually make a big difference to any potential buyer and so do matter a lot, so I think you are right to voice a subjective opinion on how it looks.

trgn 11y ago
Little cars can get away with a lot. Sloppy lines, blocky stance, squat haunches, fat lights, goofy plastics ... that kind of stuff always looks horrible on larger cars. But small cars get away with it, sometimes even with style, for some reason.
stcredzero 11y ago
I have to completely disagree with you. I think it's actually a great looking little car. Me too. I rather like the Fiat 500e better than the Tesla for styling. I'm going to put down the deposit for a Tesla Model 3, though.

cmurf 11y ago

Why would autonomous cars be here sooner than Google thinks? Their talk is a fairly slow roll out of selective autonomic-like features in specific contexts. They've said probably 15 years before there's full autonomy in cities. And outside of cities it'll still be a desert. Full autonomy is very challenging. More standardization among the manufacturers is needed, like the recent braking standard they've announced, but also that includes local governments to stop doing crazy things like different sign shapes, colors, fonts, messages, even vertical vs horizontal traffic lights. There's a lot of work to be done by more than just the car manufacturers.

mdorazio 11y ago
Do you have a source for the 15 years number? I keep seeing people on HN saying 15-30 years, probably based on that widely misrepresented SXSW talk, and that just doesn't match up to the state of the technology or progress on the legal/regulatory front. Robotaxis will be in some California cities around 5 years from now unless some major setback happens. Here's a report that summarizes some of the sentiment I see in the industry [1]. Remember: there are already 100% fully autonomous vehicles roaming real roads in Silicon Valley. 5 years is a very long time to shrink and improve sensors, learn from real-world driving experiences, and beef up the software. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/report-10-million-self-driving-cars-will-be-on-the-road-by-2020-2015-5-6 http://www.businessinsider.com/report-10-million-self-drivin...
- ghaff 11y ago
  Autonomous cars with drivers ready to take control because that's their job. Figure 50 years for robo-taxis.
  - mdorazio 11y ago
    Again, do you have a source for that, or at least some detailed reasoning? In a notorious story, a police officer pulled over a Google Car with no driver in it [1]. That was last year, on a real street. Completely driverless cars are already here, they just need to be refined over the next few years to be ready for wider adoption. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/us/google-self-driving-car-pulled-over/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/us/google-self-driving-car-pul...

serge2k 11y ago

500e looks super ugly from the front. This looks ugly too. I'm undecided on the model 3.

qq66 11y ago

For a luxury car, looks matter a lot for the success of the vehicle, but for family/utility cars, I don't think they matter that much. Minivans are horrendous looking but popular for their utility.