5 ms·

You know, I don’t normally get into these types of debates, but the heartlessness of your comment really bothers for some reason. It reminds me of the fable of

by F_J_H 17y ago

You know, I don’t normally get into these types of debates, but the heartlessness of your comment really bothers for some reason. It reminds me of the fable of the ant and grasshopper (circulated by the teabaggers lately), which basically states that the grasshopper, because of poor planning, should be kicked to the curb to die in the cold rather than forcing the industrious ant to lend a hand. (You would love the altered version descibed here: http://www.grist.org/article/the8/ http://www.grist.org/article/the8/) And your comment further down that they should have set aside money for moving when they still had it is completely unhelpful. I once heard of a person who took his Pontiac to a mechanic because of a problem he was having with it. He asked the mechanic "What should I do?" to which the mechanic replied, "Don’t buy a Pontiac". Not really helpful. So, your solution to Ms. Eisen’s problem is that they should simply move to a cheaper apartment? Well, turns out that due to a work injury, her husband is confined to the couch. So, not only would he not be able to help move, but they type of apartment they could get would be restricted by his accessibility requirements. And, their vehicle broke down, so they would have to rent a moving van or rely on friends. Moving does cost money and it may not be an option. Oh right, they "should have thought of that when they had money". Well, setting aside how completely unhelpful that comment is, maybe she didn’t think she would be out of work for 2 years, and now the money they had set aside is gone, and they never thought they would get to the point where they would have to move? Maybe they live near by treatment centers for her husband and the only places with cheaper apartments are too far way? There is not enough information in the article to come to the conclusion that simply moving to a cheaper apartment will solve all of their problems so that you won’t have to "pay more taxes so she can live in an apartment that costs more than mine." So, what would you do if you were standing in front of you? Tell her "Too bad so sad, you should have thought about all this when you had money", and then throw her aside in disgust, but not before handing her a couple of Ayn Rand’s books so she can learn how to pull herself up by her own bootstraps? When society begins to suffer, we all ultimately suffer my friend, no matter whose fault it is.

natrius 17y ago
Placing blame is worthwhile when it can inform the future decisions of the audience. If you neutralize all mistakes, more people will make mistakes. Someone living in a relatively expensive apartment shouldn't have their housing costs subsidized. Subsidizing moving costs would be something I could get behind, and I'd rather do it through a nonprofit than through taxes.
potatolicious 17y ago
IMHO one of the greatest, and most misguided straw men we have as a society is the boogeyman that is the lazy, stupid citizen. I've recently started working with the homeless, and had the opportunity to live in an industrial, working-class slum in Canada... what I see in those places is not maliciousness, nor laziness. Have I met the lazy, good-for-nothing freeloaders living in a shack in the slums? Sure - but that guy is really not as common as people seem to think. It's a critical mistake that betrays the arrogance of the monied in this country to assume that these people are anything but a minority in homeless and poor population. It's so easy to try and take full credit for your success, and try to push all blame for failure to the individual. It's far too easy to judge people you have never met using assumptions you have never truly tested. For everyone railing against the poor, I'd highly recommend volunteering some time with your local non-profit that handles these issues. Meet these people, put a face and name to your wild accusations, and you will find it much harder to scream about lazy, freeloading Americans - because they're actually kind of hard to find. Instead of being monied and ignorant, be monied and informed.
- xenophanes 17y ago
  In other words, you've met countless people who could easily live on $1595 per month? Cool. I have no doubt they exist. And that they could have handled the situation from the article better. Why can't welfare policy focus on helping those people? Competent slum people are more effective to help, and much more sympathetic, than incompetent people getting a monthly check for more than full time minimum wage work.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    Because those people, and those other people, are really not that widely separated. I currently work at two places that deal with the homeless - one focuses on work placement, the other focuses on immediate relief, and what I see is that the population between those two groups are really separated by sheer luck, and the amount of support they have been able to receive from non-profits, family, and community. The people who have been able to bootstrap themselves out of homelessness and into gainful employment all have done so with a gigantic effort from countless concerned citizens, many of whom (including myself) work entirely for free. The notion of a homeless person who through sheer determination and savvy pulls themselves up, without the understanding support of those around them, is a complete fabrication. I find your argument as thus: I see some people who have been able to exit poverty and homelessness (conveniently ignoring the fact that the support programs that enable this are far less vindictive and judgmental than you seem to be), therefore anyone who can't is just unworthy of help. I have, in my brief time working with this issue, met many people far better than myself, who dedicate a ludicrous portion of their lives to enabling and improving lives... and none of them subscribe to the idea of the lazy, good-for-nothing poor. If I may be so bold - our homeless/poor support systems, as overtaxed as they are, succeed in spite of attitudes like yours, not because.
xenophanes 17y ago
If we give money to people with a track record of bad judgment about issues like whether they should save enough money to be able to move apartments, whether they will be able to find a new job soon or not, and how to live cheaply while unemployed, what do you think is going to happen to that money? It will make them into wiser people?
- elptacek 17y ago
  Of course it will make them wiser -- in the exact same way bailing out the banks has put an end to CDOs.
bricestacey 17y ago
F_J_H, I would love to feel sorry for these people, but there is little to be sorry for. The worst scenario presented in this article is the Eisens with their $19,000/yr disability income. That is a large sum to live off of. I have no pity. As far as I care, they are living pretty damn good although very irresponsibly. The next have prospects of $15/hour and the other was making $2500/month in child support and unemployment. That's pretty damn good! The new poor are whiners, making plenty of money, but not enough for what they're used to. It's like my father who repeatedly tells me he wants to continue living the lifestyle he is accustomed to without paying it forward. Will I pay his dues? Sure will, but I don't really care for the Eisens. I don't care to supplement their income above minimum wage. Why does an honest worker get paid $7.25/hr and someone who does nothing makes more?
- F_J_H 17y ago
  I understand your argument, the basic gist of which seems to be that we shouldn’t feel sorry for, or help people who have fallen on hard times due to their own irresponsible behavior. They should have to live with the consequences, and especially if they still have it better than others who do act responsibly as you feel is the case with the Eisens. You know, there are people out there who feel that we shouldn’t help those of have contracted AIDS through subsidizing drugs or health care when the person got the virus due to risky behavior. I’ve heard people say that although they feel sorry for someone who contracted HIV through a blood transfusion, there is no way they are going to feel sorry for “some fag who got it from romps in a bathhouse”. Hopefully that sounds abhorrent to you, but it really is not far off the logic you are using in the case of the Eisens. Or think of the Katrina victims, which hit the impoverished the hardest. City officials knew there were problems with the levies, and some of the victims behaved in a pretty reprehensible manner (shooting a police/rescue workers, looting, etc.) But you know, despite the clear path of blame, I don’t think the right thing for the rest of the country to do would have been to stand there with arms folded saying “It’s your own damn fault, you fix it! Don’t look to me for a handout!” I know there are people out there who are suffering due to their own irresponsibility, and yes, it is hard to feel sorry for them at times. But what do we do? Let them die? I am not proud to say it, but I once felt the same way as you do about people like the Eisens. But then someone helped me understand that poverty and disease, no matter who is at fault, ultimately effects all of us (e.g. when my neighborhood starts to crumple, my own house starts to lose value.) And at the end of the day, we all make mistakes, and what helps us progress is education and a helping hand, not an “I told you so” lecture.
nostrademons 17y ago
Something to ponder: comments on the Internet are never for the benefit of the person they're addressed to. The lady in the article is never going to read Hacker News. She has no idea that people are gossiping about her life. All these comments are completely unhelpful to her, because she's never going to read them. And even if she did - what's she going to do now? Even if you "fix society", it'll take so long that she won't be able to reap the benefits. (Reminds me of my mom's work on the sidewalk committee when I was 8: by the time we got a sidewalk by our house, I'd gotten my driver's license.) However, this site is filled with young people just starting their careers. A good many of them are renting apartments. The advice above isn't completely unhelpful to them. It may save them from some very expensive mistakes.
- starkfist 17y ago
  Indeed. It's worth putting one's self into the shoes of the people in the article and thinking about what you would actually do. Unemployment at 57 and living in overpriced housing in an expensive area of the country doesn't seem like an unlikely fate for many hackers.

by F_J_H 17y ago

natrius 17y ago

Placing blame is worthwhile when it can inform the future decisions of the audience. If you neutralize all mistakes, more people will make mistakes. Someone living in a relatively expensive apartment shouldn't have their housing costs subsidized. Subsidizing moving costs would be something I could get behind, and I'd rather do it through a nonprofit than through taxes.

potatolicious 17y ago

IMHO one of the greatest, and most misguided straw men we have as a society is the boogeyman that is the lazy, stupid citizen. I've recently started working with the homeless, and had the opportunity to live in an industrial, working-class slum in Canada... what I see in those places is not maliciousness, nor laziness. Have I met the lazy, good-for-nothing freeloaders living in a shack in the slums? Sure - but that guy is really not as common as people seem to think. It's a critical mistake that betrays the arrogance of the monied in this country to assume that these people are anything but a minority in homeless and poor population. It's so easy to try and take full credit for your success, and try to push all blame for failure to the individual. It's far too easy to judge people you have never met using assumptions you have never truly tested. For everyone railing against the poor, I'd highly recommend volunteering some time with your local non-profit that handles these issues. Meet these people, put a face and name to your wild accusations, and you will find it much harder to scream about lazy, freeloading Americans - because they're actually kind of hard to find. Instead of being monied and ignorant, be monied and informed.

xenophanes 17y ago
In other words, you've met countless people who could easily live on $1595 per month? Cool. I have no doubt they exist. And that they could have handled the situation from the article better. Why can't welfare policy focus on helping those people? Competent slum people are more effective to help, and much more sympathetic, than incompetent people getting a monthly check for more than full time minimum wage work.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  Because those people, and those other people, are really not that widely separated. I currently work at two places that deal with the homeless - one focuses on work placement, the other focuses on immediate relief, and what I see is that the population between those two groups are really separated by sheer luck, and the amount of support they have been able to receive from non-profits, family, and community. The people who have been able to bootstrap themselves out of homelessness and into gainful employment all have done so with a gigantic effort from countless concerned citizens, many of whom (including myself) work entirely for free. The notion of a homeless person who through sheer determination and savvy pulls themselves up, without the understanding support of those around them, is a complete fabrication. I find your argument as thus: I see some people who have been able to exit poverty and homelessness (conveniently ignoring the fact that the support programs that enable this are far less vindictive and judgmental than you seem to be), therefore anyone who can't is just unworthy of help. I have, in my brief time working with this issue, met many people far better than myself, who dedicate a ludicrous portion of their lives to enabling and improving lives... and none of them subscribe to the idea of the lazy, good-for-nothing poor. If I may be so bold - our homeless/poor support systems, as overtaxed as they are, succeed in spite of attitudes like yours, not because.

xenophanes 17y ago

If we give money to people with a track record of bad judgment about issues like whether they should save enough money to be able to move apartments, whether they will be able to find a new job soon or not, and how to live cheaply while unemployed, what do you think is going to happen to that money? It will make them into wiser people?

elptacek 17y ago
Of course it will make them wiser -- in the exact same way bailing out the banks has put an end to CDOs.

bricestacey 17y ago

F_J_H, I would love to feel sorry for these people, but there is little to be sorry for. The worst scenario presented in this article is the Eisens with their $19,000/yr disability income. That is a large sum to live off of. I have no pity. As far as I care, they are living pretty damn good although very irresponsibly. The next have prospects of $15/hour and the other was making $2500/month in child support and unemployment. That's pretty damn good! The new poor are whiners, making plenty of money, but not enough for what they're used to. It's like my father who repeatedly tells me he wants to continue living the lifestyle he is accustomed to without paying it forward. Will I pay his dues? Sure will, but I don't really care for the Eisens. I don't care to supplement their income above minimum wage. Why does an honest worker get paid $7.25/hr and someone who does nothing makes more?

F_J_H 17y ago
I understand your argument, the basic gist of which seems to be that we shouldn’t feel sorry for, or help people who have fallen on hard times due to their own irresponsible behavior. They should have to live with the consequences, and especially if they still have it better than others who do act responsibly as you feel is the case with the Eisens. You know, there are people out there who feel that we shouldn’t help those of have contracted AIDS through subsidizing drugs or health care when the person got the virus due to risky behavior. I’ve heard people say that although they feel sorry for someone who contracted HIV through a blood transfusion, there is no way they are going to feel sorry for “some fag who got it from romps in a bathhouse”. Hopefully that sounds abhorrent to you, but it really is not far off the logic you are using in the case of the Eisens. Or think of the Katrina victims, which hit the impoverished the hardest. City officials knew there were problems with the levies, and some of the victims behaved in a pretty reprehensible manner (shooting a police/rescue workers, looting, etc.) But you know, despite the clear path of blame, I don’t think the right thing for the rest of the country to do would have been to stand there with arms folded saying “It’s your own damn fault, you fix it! Don’t look to me for a handout!” I know there are people out there who are suffering due to their own irresponsibility, and yes, it is hard to feel sorry for them at times. But what do we do? Let them die? I am not proud to say it, but I once felt the same way as you do about people like the Eisens. But then someone helped me understand that poverty and disease, no matter who is at fault, ultimately effects all of us (e.g. when my neighborhood starts to crumple, my own house starts to lose value.) And at the end of the day, we all make mistakes, and what helps us progress is education and a helping hand, not an “I told you so” lecture.

nostrademons 17y ago

Something to ponder: comments on the Internet are never for the benefit of the person they're addressed to. The lady in the article is never going to read Hacker News. She has no idea that people are gossiping about her life. All these comments are completely unhelpful to her, because she's never going to read them. And even if she did - what's she going to do now? Even if you "fix society", it'll take so long that she won't be able to reap the benefits. (Reminds me of my mom's work on the sidewalk committee when I was 8: by the time we got a sidewalk by our house, I'd gotten my driver's license.) However, this site is filled with young people just starting their careers. A good many of them are renting apartments. The advice above isn't completely unhelpful to them. It may save them from some very expensive mistakes.

starkfist 17y ago
Indeed. It's worth putting one's self into the shoes of the people in the article and thinking about what you would actually do. Unemployment at 57 and living in overpriced housing in an expensive area of the country doesn't seem like an unlikely fate for many hackers.