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Marxists and communists have tried this without also sticking to democracy... The well known failings could just as well be due to the massize amount of corrupt

by rtpg 11y ago

Marxists and communists have tried this without also sticking to democracy... The well known failings could just as well be due to the massize amount of corruption that came from the strong bases of power. We also had "real" market economies (no trust busting or the like) in the early 20th and it was shitty for a huge part of the population History is the biggest argument against all economic systems

turar 11y ago
Not to mention capitalist countries working very hard to undermine marxists and communists by pretty much any means possible.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  That's rich, considering the number of 'marxist' rebel groups murdering nuns and social leaders and bombing schools.
  - knughit 11y ago
    How does that compare to a capitalist killing a 1000people in one day by collapsing a building on them? (Rana Plaza)
    - hjhgyhgd 11y ago
      Yes, because surely millions of lives weren't viciously murdered during Mao's and Stalin's reigns. Let's just point to a building with structural failures and imply capitalists murderers.
    - tmptmp 11y ago
      How does that compare to a Marxist/communist like Mao/Stalin killing and maiming hundreds of thousands just because they didn't exactly speak the way he approved?
  - turar 11y ago
    What's that number? Not even out of single digits? That's rich indeed, considering the entire history of the 20th century is that of successful foreign capitalist intervention, starting all the way with the Russian revolution. No matter how bloody the communists were, my original point was that it was never done in an environment without active foreign involvement of undermining, destabilization, and outright warfare.
- tim333 11y ago
  And usually with good reason. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism for details of the 94 million deaths of their own people.
AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
Are you suggesting that in the West our democracies do not contain massive amounts of corruption stemming from strong bases of power? I also question your suggestion that "real market economies" were responsible for the dispair that certain communities felt in the early 20th century. "Real" market economies really didn't have much of a chance to exist in the 20th century because by 1913 the Federal Reserve was installed. That ended self-regulated capitalism in the United States, at least. Europe followed suit shortly thereafter. Just prior to the early 20th century, enormous numbers of people were liberated from the misery of famine and early mortality thanks to the innovations derived from a loosely-regulated market economy. Back then, nobody knew how to deal with a world where the vast percentage of infants born would live beyond early adulthood. Most poor people would just die and there would be no government, nor economic system, around to help anyone. So when these people, born into the late 19th century system, grew into adults living in the early 20th century system, policymakers and citizens alike had no idea how to respond to the challenges that arose. We did some really stupid things as a result, and we are still paying for, and suffering from, some of those policy decisions.

by rtpg 11y ago

turar 11y ago

Not to mention capitalist countries working very hard to undermine marxists and communists by pretty much any means possible.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
That's rich, considering the number of 'marxist' rebel groups murdering nuns and social leaders and bombing schools.
- knughit 11y ago
  How does that compare to a capitalist killing a 1000people in one day by collapsing a building on them? (Rana Plaza)
  - hjhgyhgd 11y ago
    Yes, because surely millions of lives weren't viciously murdered during Mao's and Stalin's reigns. Let's just point to a building with structural failures and imply capitalists murderers.
  - tmptmp 11y ago
    How does that compare to a Marxist/communist like Mao/Stalin killing and maiming hundreds of thousands just because they didn't exactly speak the way he approved?
- turar 11y ago
  What's that number? Not even out of single digits? That's rich indeed, considering the entire history of the 20th century is that of successful foreign capitalist intervention, starting all the way with the Russian revolution. No matter how bloody the communists were, my original point was that it was never done in an environment without active foreign involvement of undermining, destabilization, and outright warfare.
tim333 11y ago
And usually with good reason. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism for details of the 94 million deaths of their own people.

AndrewUnmuted 11y ago

Are you suggesting that in the West our democracies do not contain massive amounts of corruption stemming from strong bases of power? I also question your suggestion that "real market economies" were responsible for the dispair that certain communities felt in the early 20th century. "Real" market economies really didn't have much of a chance to exist in the 20th century because by 1913 the Federal Reserve was installed. That ended self-regulated capitalism in the United States, at least. Europe followed suit shortly thereafter. Just prior to the early 20th century, enormous numbers of people were liberated from the misery of famine and early mortality thanks to the innovations derived from a loosely-regulated market economy. Back then, nobody knew how to deal with a world where the vast percentage of infants born would live beyond early adulthood. Most poor people would just die and there would be no government, nor economic system, around to help anyone. So when these people, born into the late 19th century system, grew into adults living in the early 20th century system, policymakers and citizens alike had no idea how to respond to the challenges that arose. We did some really stupid things as a result, and we are still paying for, and suffering from, some of those policy decisions.