4 ms·

Up until now, the possibility of having a group of people who lead a leisure life without an undercaste of slaves hasn't existed. Automation is a new thing unde

Up until now, the possibility of having a group of people who lead a leisure life without an undercaste of slaves hasn't existed. Automation is a new thing under the sun.

hjhgjtyhdf 11y ago
That's funny because the "slaves" in America right now enjoy a higher standard of living than virtually every king and queen before our generation.
- astazangasta 11y ago
  Kings and queens didn't have to work 70 hour weeks to feed themselves last I checked.
  - hjhgyhgd 11y ago
    A person on welfare today has more access to a vast number of food options than Kings and Queens of yesteryear. Grapes and wine are extremely cheap and affordable to anyone who has $5 in their pocket. A full meal of chicken and rice can also be had for $3.
    - astazangasta 11y ago
      My word, their cups floweth over.
- pharke 11y ago
  How is this not patently false? If you take someone living below the poverty line, earning minimum wage, renting their meager apartment, eating highly processed carbs and pseudo-meat, in debt to their bank and payday loan sharks, and under constant threat of homelessness brought on by unexpected illness or economic downturn, how is this situation in any way superior to a king or queen as they existed before "our generation" which I take to mean the modern era rather than literally our generation. A monarch of the past would have obviously better access to food, more of it, higher quality, they might have slightly less variety available (dependent on the era and location) but they certainly weren't eating the prepackaged garbage that passes for low budget food today. By law they owned not only their own vast properties, houses, palaces, etc. but also that of all of their subjects and nobility allowing them to give and take as they wished from anyone under their dominion. Even after reforms almost all royal families were still left with vast holdings that produce more than enough wealth to live absurdly opulent lifestyles. There have been many cases of indebted rulers but that is debt in the sense of illiquidity, they were still asset rich and able to melt the plate down to pay off the debts, so to speak. This notion that everyone was universally worse off in the past and therefore even the lowest of the modern low are somehow better off in their current state and should be thankful for it is the crudest of fallacies. The trite example of modern healthcare being a shining example of why it's better to be poor today than wealthy 200 years ago is equally absurd considering that such care is often avoided by the poorest due to its cost right up until it's too late to do anything about it. You wind up with a situation where a person's only choice is to hope not to get sick since they can't afford the treatment or the missed work either of which could put them even further under water or on the street.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    I think that image of monarchs comes from the movies? The famous inventory of Charlemagne's estate includes 2 cups, one chair and a towel. Their food back then was bad meat and oatmeal, no matter who you were. Indeed, just the existence of cheap antibiotics are likely to make the most humble of today's citizens live decades longer than anyone from the past.
    - dinkumthinkum 11y ago
      You think the image of monarchs comes from the movies and that actually monarchs had little more than a couple of cups? I'm sorry but that is a very delusional view.
      - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        I don't think; I just read the evidence. E.g. http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/800Asnapium.asp http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/800Asnapium.asp
        dinkumthinkum 11y ago
        Then your evidence is pretty terribly weak. I didn't bother with this link because your claim that monarchs did not live in opulence and that some link proves that is hard to take seriously.
    - turar 11y ago
      This has a good overview of a routine day in the life of a monarch. It's nothing like bad meat and oatmeal. https://www.quora.com/What-was-daily-life-like-for-a-medieval-king https://www.quora.com/What-was-daily-life-like-for-a-medieva...
      - hjhgyhgd 11y ago
        A poor person today has access to thousands of movies and music on Netflix and YouTube. A poor person today has a vast array of meals they can purchase with less than one hour of minimum wage work. A poor person today can buy tons of generic prescription pills whose formulas were nonexistent during yesteryear.
- gech 11y ago
  People should be happy with big screen tvs
astazangasta 11y ago
No, no it is not, for fuck's sake. Automation is not new. The spinning Jenny was invented in 1764. Robot labor has been here since industrialization started and there is NOTHING new in the last twenty years. Automation is only the replacement of manual labor with machine labor, a.k.a productivity growth. If you've noticed, economies have been growing for centuries. In fact, growth is slower now than in the past. Automation is happening less now. Stop believing all this 'robots are coming for our jobs' crap. The robots have always been here.
- kruczek 11y ago
  New or not, there are more and more jobs which are becoming automated and it is a valid question to ask how society should be organized when all jobs would be automated.
  - astazangasta 11y ago
    No, this is the wrong question to ask. First of all, the rate of automation has not so far resulted in the disappearance of new work - we all survived the contraction of agriculture from employing some 50% of the population to less than 3%. There is plenty of work. An astonishing amount of work is available for people to do that isn't being done, and it's not because people are obsolete. What is lacking is capital directed at hiring people for that work. You can argue about why this is, but the basic reason to me is the general lack of demand because, more or less, the rich have all the money. Here is Krugman on the subject: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/robert-reich-challenging-oligarchy/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/robert-reich-chal...

Up until now, the possibility of having a group of people who lead a leisure life without an undercaste of slaves hasn't existed. Automation is a new thing under the sun.

hjhgjtyhdf 11y ago

That's funny because the "slaves" in America right now enjoy a higher standard of living than virtually every king and queen before our generation.

astazangasta 11y ago
Kings and queens didn't have to work 70 hour weeks to feed themselves last I checked.
- hjhgyhgd 11y ago
  A person on welfare today has more access to a vast number of food options than Kings and Queens of yesteryear. Grapes and wine are extremely cheap and affordable to anyone who has $5 in their pocket. A full meal of chicken and rice can also be had for $3.
  - astazangasta 11y ago
    My word, their cups floweth over.
pharke 11y ago
How is this not patently false? If you take someone living below the poverty line, earning minimum wage, renting their meager apartment, eating highly processed carbs and pseudo-meat, in debt to their bank and payday loan sharks, and under constant threat of homelessness brought on by unexpected illness or economic downturn, how is this situation in any way superior to a king or queen as they existed before "our generation" which I take to mean the modern era rather than literally our generation. A monarch of the past would have obviously better access to food, more of it, higher quality, they might have slightly less variety available (dependent on the era and location) but they certainly weren't eating the prepackaged garbage that passes for low budget food today. By law they owned not only their own vast properties, houses, palaces, etc. but also that of all of their subjects and nobility allowing them to give and take as they wished from anyone under their dominion. Even after reforms almost all royal families were still left with vast holdings that produce more than enough wealth to live absurdly opulent lifestyles. There have been many cases of indebted rulers but that is debt in the sense of illiquidity, they were still asset rich and able to melt the plate down to pay off the debts, so to speak. This notion that everyone was universally worse off in the past and therefore even the lowest of the modern low are somehow better off in their current state and should be thankful for it is the crudest of fallacies. The trite example of modern healthcare being a shining example of why it's better to be poor today than wealthy 200 years ago is equally absurd considering that such care is often avoided by the poorest due to its cost right up until it's too late to do anything about it. You wind up with a situation where a person's only choice is to hope not to get sick since they can't afford the treatment or the missed work either of which could put them even further under water or on the street.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  I think that image of monarchs comes from the movies? The famous inventory of Charlemagne's estate includes 2 cups, one chair and a towel. Their food back then was bad meat and oatmeal, no matter who you were. Indeed, just the existence of cheap antibiotics are likely to make the most humble of today's citizens live decades longer than anyone from the past.
  - dinkumthinkum 11y ago
    You think the image of monarchs comes from the movies and that actually monarchs had little more than a couple of cups? I'm sorry but that is a very delusional view.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      I don't think; I just read the evidence. E.g. http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/800Asnapium.asp http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/800Asnapium.asp
      - dinkumthinkum 11y ago
        Then your evidence is pretty terribly weak. I didn't bother with this link because your claim that monarchs did not live in opulence and that some link proves that is hard to take seriously.
  - turar 11y ago
    This has a good overview of a routine day in the life of a monarch. It's nothing like bad meat and oatmeal. https://www.quora.com/What-was-daily-life-like-for-a-medieval-king https://www.quora.com/What-was-daily-life-like-for-a-medieva...
    - hjhgyhgd 11y ago
      A poor person today has access to thousands of movies and music on Netflix and YouTube. A poor person today has a vast array of meals they can purchase with less than one hour of minimum wage work. A poor person today can buy tons of generic prescription pills whose formulas were nonexistent during yesteryear.
gech 11y ago
People should be happy with big screen tvs

astazangasta 11y ago

No, no it is not, for fuck's sake. Automation is not new. The spinning Jenny was invented in 1764. Robot labor has been here since industrialization started and there is NOTHING new in the last twenty years. Automation is only the replacement of manual labor with machine labor, a.k.a productivity growth. If you've noticed, economies have been growing for centuries. In fact, growth is slower now than in the past. Automation is happening less now. Stop believing all this 'robots are coming for our jobs' crap. The robots have always been here.

kruczek 11y ago
New or not, there are more and more jobs which are becoming automated and it is a valid question to ask how society should be organized when all jobs would be automated.
- astazangasta 11y ago
  No, this is the wrong question to ask. First of all, the rate of automation has not so far resulted in the disappearance of new work - we all survived the contraction of agriculture from employing some 50% of the population to less than 3%. There is plenty of work. An astonishing amount of work is available for people to do that isn't being done, and it's not because people are obsolete. What is lacking is capital directed at hiring people for that work. You can argue about why this is, but the basic reason to me is the general lack of demand because, more or less, the rich have all the money. Here is Krugman on the subject: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/robert-reich-challenging-oligarchy/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/robert-reich-chal...