5 ms·

Does everyone hold the conscious belief in the inferiority of groups based on racial characteristics? Clearly not.

by thescribe 11y ago

PhasmaFelis 11y ago
Why does racism need to be conscious?
- thescribe 11y ago
  It's the line of culpability, if we have instinct that causes racial bias then we couldn't have done any better.
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    While I agree with some elements of that line of thinking, I also think that surfacing latent biases can help us to double-check some of our "gut reactions", particularly in high stakes situations (hire/fire/promote as just one example). I do not believe in any form of quotas or similar affirmative action items, but if I am sub-consciously biased against someone, I'd rather know that, so I can make an attempt (which will still have some bias) to make a fact-based decision.
    - thescribe 11y ago
      That's completely fair, I hadn't considered critical situations.
    - trav4225 11y ago
      "I do not believe in any form of quotas or similar affirmative action items" Same here, but apparently that's what makes me "a racist", or so the media has informed me.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    False; even if racism isn't conscious that doesn't mean that it can't be identified and racist actions percent d by sufficient conscious choice and self-examination. Doing better than what unconscious instinct would lead to alone is often possible.
  - Ericson2314 11y ago
    And this is why society has focused too much an moralizing the means and making taboos out of them. It's the ends that matter.
  - dang 11y ago
    Defining it that way incentivizes people to lie to themselves.
    - azzafazza 11y ago
      ;)
- michaelbuddy 11y ago
  That's how I feel. Clearly the infrastructure of the NBA is racist for having a majority of black players when it is WAY off statistically from a population standpoint of the United States. This indicates a likely inherent and possibly unconscious structural racism within the organization. Not active racism per se, but more unconscious or subconscious selection favoring black players statistically. From this we know that the NBA consciously or unconciously believes that blacks are superior to whites and even asians in the game.
  - pgodzin 11y ago
    Over/under-representation doesn't imply racism. Look at the pipeline to the NBA. Top college basketball programs are predominantly black as well. Take a look at the pipeline there - a large percentage of inner-city kids who grew up playing basketball because courts are abundant and equipment is cheap.
    - thescribe 11y ago
      This seems very reasonable to me, but I feel like this could also be used as justification for there not being a sexism problem in programming, it's just that lots of middle class white boys grew up playing with compilers.
      - pessimizer 11y ago
        Are you saying that compilers were available to middle class white boys and not to middle class white girls? Because that's not true. Saying that more of them do it because more of them do it is not the same as saying more of them do it because more of them had access to it.
        thescribe 11y ago
        No more than basketball courts were only available to young black boys?
      - pgodzin 11y ago
gizmo 11y ago
No, but unconscious biases can have equally pernicious consequences. Take tech for example. When hiring companies select for candidates with "culture fit" and that effectively rules people out based on their race/ethnicity or religion. Those people get fewer opportunities as a result which results in lower compensation. It's very difficult to judge who is qualified for a job and who is not. So people take shortcuts. Reject those who didn't graduate from a good college. Reject those who didn't get the right internships. Reject those who don't have relatable hobbies and life goals. All of these hiring shortcuts effectively discriminate against qualified minorities, even if the intentions of all involved are pure as snow.
- merpnderp 11y ago
  So wanting a new hire to enjoy programming on the side to try to screen out those who aren't really in to programming is racially discriminatory? Cause that's going to require some profound evidence.
- kabouseng 11y ago
  And yet all these shortcuts have argumentatively a moderate to strong correlation to job performance. Also there is from my understanding very little discrimination toward asian minorities, wouldn't the same "shortcuts" also then discriminate against them, yet asians are seen as hard working and smart employees...
  - gizmo 11y ago
    Whether there is a correlation is immaterial. I'm saying that it's immoral and discriminatory to judge an individual by extrapolating from group characteristics. (And there is a ton of discrimination against Asian and Asian-American tech employees, for instance the degree at which they get promoted to management positions: http://fortune.com/2015/05/06/silicon-valley-asians-report/ http://fortune.com/2015/05/06/silicon-valley-asians-report/)

Does everyone hold the conscious belief in the inferiority of groups based on racial characteristics? Clearly not.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

Why does racism need to be conscious?

thescribe 11y ago
It's the line of culpability, if we have instinct that causes racial bias then we couldn't have done any better.
- sokoloff 11y ago
  While I agree with some elements of that line of thinking, I also think that surfacing latent biases can help us to double-check some of our "gut reactions", particularly in high stakes situations (hire/fire/promote as just one example). I do not believe in any form of quotas or similar affirmative action items, but if I am sub-consciously biased against someone, I'd rather know that, so I can make an attempt (which will still have some bias) to make a fact-based decision.
  - thescribe 11y ago
    That's completely fair, I hadn't considered critical situations.
  - trav4225 11y ago
    "I do not believe in any form of quotas or similar affirmative action items" Same here, but apparently that's what makes me "a racist", or so the media has informed me.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  False; even if racism isn't conscious that doesn't mean that it can't be identified and racist actions percent d by sufficient conscious choice and self-examination. Doing better than what unconscious instinct would lead to alone is often possible.
- Ericson2314 11y ago
  And this is why society has focused too much an moralizing the means and making taboos out of them. It's the ends that matter.
- dang 11y ago
  Defining it that way incentivizes people to lie to themselves.
  - azzafazza 11y ago
    ;)
michaelbuddy 11y ago
That's how I feel. Clearly the infrastructure of the NBA is racist for having a majority of black players when it is WAY off statistically from a population standpoint of the United States. This indicates a likely inherent and possibly unconscious structural racism within the organization. Not active racism per se, but more unconscious or subconscious selection favoring black players statistically. From this we know that the NBA consciously or unconciously believes that blacks are superior to whites and even asians in the game.
- pgodzin 11y ago
  Over/under-representation doesn't imply racism. Look at the pipeline to the NBA. Top college basketball programs are predominantly black as well. Take a look at the pipeline there - a large percentage of inner-city kids who grew up playing basketball because courts are abundant and equipment is cheap.
  - thescribe 11y ago
    This seems very reasonable to me, but I feel like this could also be used as justification for there not being a sexism problem in programming, it's just that lots of middle class white boys grew up playing with compilers.
    - pessimizer 11y ago
      Are you saying that compilers were available to middle class white boys and not to middle class white girls? Because that's not true. Saying that more of them do it because more of them do it is not the same as saying more of them do it because more of them had access to it.
      - thescribe 11y ago
        No more than basketball courts were only available to young black boys?
    - pgodzin 11y ago

gizmo 11y ago

No, but unconscious biases can have equally pernicious consequences. Take tech for example. When hiring companies select for candidates with "culture fit" and that effectively rules people out based on their race/ethnicity or religion. Those people get fewer opportunities as a result which results in lower compensation. It's very difficult to judge who is qualified for a job and who is not. So people take shortcuts. Reject those who didn't graduate from a good college. Reject those who didn't get the right internships. Reject those who don't have relatable hobbies and life goals. All of these hiring shortcuts effectively discriminate against qualified minorities, even if the intentions of all involved are pure as snow.

merpnderp 11y ago
So wanting a new hire to enjoy programming on the side to try to screen out those who aren't really in to programming is racially discriminatory? Cause that's going to require some profound evidence.
kabouseng 11y ago
And yet all these shortcuts have argumentatively a moderate to strong correlation to job performance. Also there is from my understanding very little discrimination toward asian minorities, wouldn't the same "shortcuts" also then discriminate against them, yet asians are seen as hard working and smart employees...
- gizmo 11y ago
  Whether there is a correlation is immaterial. I'm saying that it's immoral and discriminatory to judge an individual by extrapolating from group characteristics. (And there is a ton of discrimination against Asian and Asian-American tech employees, for instance the degree at which they get promoted to management positions: http://fortune.com/2015/05/06/silicon-valley-asians-report/ http://fortune.com/2015/05/06/silicon-valley-asians-report/)