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Well exactly. The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top. I

Well exactly. The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top. I know I am not Donald Knuth or Linus Torvalds or John Carmack or Woz. I am not a rockstar.

studentrob 11y ago
I totally agree, but can I argue that you're not not them either? Anyway to each his own.
ferdinandvwyk 11y ago
If you read Linus Torvalds' Q&A posted up a while ago, you'll see that Linus Torvalds doesn't think he's a rockstar either! http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-with-linus-torvalds http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-w... "I’m not a big visionary. I’m a very plodding pedestrian engineer, and I try to keep my eyes firmly on the ground."
- spdionis 11y ago
  He surely thinks that he's one of the best engineers ever, but he stops at the engineering part.
V-2 11y ago
Certain degree of narcissist traits can be beneficial if it translates into taking pride in your work. "We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris" (Larry Wall) You don't need to be Donald Knuth - or Larry Wall - to be above average :)
- sokoloff 11y ago
  At my most pessimistic moments, I think that just knowing who Donald Knuth and Larry Wall are is strongly correlated with being above-average.
- partycoder 11y ago
  Well, laziness in terms of typing more, probably. Laziness in terms of thinking less, definitively no.
  - V-2 11y ago
    Of course, anyway I meant to point out "hubris" (as a response to singling out "narcissism" as a flaw) :)
  - V-2 11y ago
    LAZINESS: The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer. IMPATIENCE: The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a programmer. HUBRIS: Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris
fidz 11y ago
> The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top I think 10x programmers are what programmer should be. In the end, we should have people with all of "10x programmers" -- which mean all people will eventually end with the same great skill of coding. Unfortunately, 10x programmers are real. There are real programmers who can do the same job with less time. 10x teams are real, too. It is mentioned by Tom DeMarco in Peopleware book. Personally, they might not be called "Ninja" nor "Rockstar", but the fact is their skill is higher than average. But well.... I really agree with Dan Kim here. I think programming is a continuous improvement. You may not end up like Torvalds, but if you are really want to self improve yourself (e.g. Knowing your code yesterday is worst than today and really want to know how to make the code better), then it is good enough. IMHO, to reach this summit ("10x"), it is very-very hard. You can improve your skill by doing one of these way: * By volume. Just do so much thing in your field and voila, you will mastery that skill. Just like pilot. Or, * By supervisioned learning. This is what we know by "mentorship". You may don't know "how to start" if you learn by volume. With supervisioned learning, you can make the learning faster and enjoy the outcome earlier.

studentrob 11y ago

I totally agree, but can I argue that you're not not them either? Anyway to each his own.

ferdinandvwyk 11y ago

If you read Linus Torvalds' Q&A posted up a while ago, you'll see that Linus Torvalds doesn't think he's a rockstar either! http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-with-linus-torvalds http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-w... "I’m not a big visionary. I’m a very plodding pedestrian engineer, and I try to keep my eyes firmly on the ground."

spdionis 11y ago
He surely thinks that he's one of the best engineers ever, but he stops at the engineering part.

V-2 11y ago

Certain degree of narcissist traits can be beneficial if it translates into taking pride in your work. "We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris" (Larry Wall) You don't need to be Donald Knuth - or Larry Wall - to be above average :)

sokoloff 11y ago
At my most pessimistic moments, I think that just knowing who Donald Knuth and Larry Wall are is strongly correlated with being above-average.
partycoder 11y ago
Well, laziness in terms of typing more, probably. Laziness in terms of thinking less, definitively no.
- V-2 11y ago
  Of course, anyway I meant to point out "hubris" (as a response to singling out "narcissism" as a flaw) :)
- V-2 11y ago
  LAZINESS: The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer. IMPATIENCE: The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a programmer. HUBRIS: Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris

fidz 11y ago

> The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top I think 10x programmers are what programmer should be. In the end, we should have people with all of "10x programmers" -- which mean all people will eventually end with the same great skill of coding. Unfortunately, 10x programmers are real. There are real programmers who can do the same job with less time. 10x teams are real, too. It is mentioned by Tom DeMarco in Peopleware book. Personally, they might not be called "Ninja" nor "Rockstar", but the fact is their skill is higher than average. But well.... I really agree with Dan Kim here. I think programming is a continuous improvement. You may not end up like Torvalds, but if you are really want to self improve yourself (e.g. Knowing your code yesterday is worst than today and really want to know how to make the code better), then it is good enough. IMHO, to reach this summit ("10x"), it is very-very hard. You can improve your skill by doing one of these way: * By volume. Just do so much thing in your field and voila, you will mastery that skill. Just like pilot. Or, * By supervisioned learning. This is what we know by "mentorship". You may don't know "how to start" if you learn by volume. With supervisioned learning, you can make the learning faster and enjoy the outcome earlier.