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"But what if, like me, you don’t relate to these labels at all?" My personal hypothesis is I think these labels are just meant to attract and appeal to a certa

"But what if, like me, you don’t relate to these labels at all?" My personal hypothesis is I think these labels are just meant to attract and appeal to a certain demographic. The demographic that skews young, male, and single. The demographic that prioritizes work above all other pursuits. The demographic that is naive and easy to manipulate into seeking life fulfillment by staying at the office from 7am-9pm. This is the sort of employee they are seeking so they do what they can to attract them. They aren't looking for people who "coder ninja" doesn't appeal to. It's by design. I think it actually works since I'm totally turned off by those job ads.

rhizome 11y ago
I think of it as a pandering attempt to connect with programmer subculture through aspirational ego.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  My point is that they are trying to attract those that identify with the programming subculture. Many fantastic programmers don't identify with that subculture but they aren't looking to hire them.
partycoder 11y ago
Well exactly. The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top. I know I am not Donald Knuth or Linus Torvalds or John Carmack or Woz. I am not a rockstar.
- studentrob 11y ago
  I totally agree, but can I argue that you're not not them either? Anyway to each his own.
- ferdinandvwyk 11y ago
  If you read Linus Torvalds' Q&A posted up a while ago, you'll see that Linus Torvalds doesn't think he's a rockstar either! http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-with-linus-torvalds http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-w... "I’m not a big visionary. I’m a very plodding pedestrian engineer, and I try to keep my eyes firmly on the ground."
  - spdionis 11y ago
    He surely thinks that he's one of the best engineers ever, but he stops at the engineering part.
- V-2 11y ago
  Certain degree of narcissist traits can be beneficial if it translates into taking pride in your work. "We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris" (Larry Wall) You don't need to be Donald Knuth - or Larry Wall - to be above average :)
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    At my most pessimistic moments, I think that just knowing who Donald Knuth and Larry Wall are is strongly correlated with being above-average.
  - partycoder 11y ago
    Well, laziness in terms of typing more, probably. Laziness in terms of thinking less, definitively no.
    - V-2 11y ago
      Of course, anyway I meant to point out "hubris" (as a response to singling out "narcissism" as a flaw) :)
    - V-2 11y ago
      LAZINESS: The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer. IMPATIENCE: The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a programmer. HUBRIS: Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris
- fidz 11y ago
  > The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top I think 10x programmers are what programmer should be. In the end, we should have people with all of "10x programmers" -- which mean all people will eventually end with the same great skill of coding. Unfortunately, 10x programmers are real. There are real programmers who can do the same job with less time. 10x teams are real, too. It is mentioned by Tom DeMarco in Peopleware book. Personally, they might not be called "Ninja" nor "Rockstar", but the fact is their skill is higher than average. But well.... I really agree with Dan Kim here. I think programming is a continuous improvement. You may not end up like Torvalds, but if you are really want to self improve yourself (e.g. Knowing your code yesterday is worst than today and really want to know how to make the code better), then it is good enough. IMHO, to reach this summit ("10x"), it is very-very hard. You can improve your skill by doing one of these way: * By volume. Just do so much thing in your field and voila, you will mastery that skill. Just like pilot. Or, * By supervisioned learning. This is what we know by "mentorship". You may don't know "how to start" if you learn by volume. With supervisioned learning, you can make the learning faster and enjoy the outcome earlier.
overgard 11y ago
You're entirely right, but it's a stupid plan. You know what happens when you get a bunch of college kids to build things? You get something that, uh, looks and acts like a thing built by a bunch of college kids. IE, a dumpster fire. It turns out experience matters. I can't even get mad at the people that perpetuate this, because they're going to get what they deserve.
- spitfire 11y ago
  A VC payday? Seriously though, that's what many of these people /will/ get. Worse, they'll actually believe it was their own talent that got them there. The world is a cruel and unfair place.
- rwjwjuwjudf 11y ago
  Many of the most valuable tech properties today were built by college kids, or better yet college dropouts. It turns out that having your whole life ahead of you matters, because you're more willing to take risks.
  - fishnchips 11y ago
    Or maybe it's more about having less to lose. Once you have kids and mortgage you're less likely to take risks.
  - overgard 11y ago
    My point isn't that young people are incapable (some of them are great), rather, that the people that think they can build something by taking advantage of naivete are going to quickly discover that for every young brilliant programmer, there's 10 people that will some day be good, but at the moment they're inexperienced and they'll create junk if they're not mentored. But it's true, many of these companies are designed to be flipped, technical excellence might be a secondary concern. Ninjas beware.
    - rwjwjuwjudf 11y ago
      Oh yeah, agreed, but capitalism doesn't care, just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks... Probably building something in grad school helps.

rhizome 11y ago

I think of it as a pandering attempt to connect with programmer subculture through aspirational ego.

nommm-nommm 11y ago
My point is that they are trying to attract those that identify with the programming subculture. Many fantastic programmers don't identify with that subculture but they aren't looking to hire them.

partycoder 11y ago

Well exactly. The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top. I know I am not Donald Knuth or Linus Torvalds or John Carmack or Woz. I am not a rockstar.

studentrob 11y ago
I totally agree, but can I argue that you're not not them either? Anyway to each his own.
ferdinandvwyk 11y ago
If you read Linus Torvalds' Q&A posted up a while ago, you'll see that Linus Torvalds doesn't think he's a rockstar either! http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-with-linus-torvalds http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-w... "I’m not a big visionary. I’m a very plodding pedestrian engineer, and I try to keep my eyes firmly on the ground."
- spdionis 11y ago
  He surely thinks that he's one of the best engineers ever, but he stops at the engineering part.
V-2 11y ago
Certain degree of narcissist traits can be beneficial if it translates into taking pride in your work. "We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris" (Larry Wall) You don't need to be Donald Knuth - or Larry Wall - to be above average :)
- sokoloff 11y ago
  At my most pessimistic moments, I think that just knowing who Donald Knuth and Larry Wall are is strongly correlated with being above-average.
- partycoder 11y ago
  Well, laziness in terms of typing more, probably. Laziness in terms of thinking less, definitively no.
  - V-2 11y ago
    Of course, anyway I meant to point out "hubris" (as a response to singling out "narcissism" as a flaw) :)
  - V-2 11y ago
    LAZINESS: The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer. IMPATIENCE: The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a programmer. HUBRIS: Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris
fidz 11y ago
> The concepts of 10x programmer, ninja, rockstar, etc... appeal to narcissistic people that really believe they're above average or at the top I think 10x programmers are what programmer should be. In the end, we should have people with all of "10x programmers" -- which mean all people will eventually end with the same great skill of coding. Unfortunately, 10x programmers are real. There are real programmers who can do the same job with less time. 10x teams are real, too. It is mentioned by Tom DeMarco in Peopleware book. Personally, they might not be called "Ninja" nor "Rockstar", but the fact is their skill is higher than average. But well.... I really agree with Dan Kim here. I think programming is a continuous improvement. You may not end up like Torvalds, but if you are really want to self improve yourself (e.g. Knowing your code yesterday is worst than today and really want to know how to make the code better), then it is good enough. IMHO, to reach this summit ("10x"), it is very-very hard. You can improve your skill by doing one of these way: * By volume. Just do so much thing in your field and voila, you will mastery that skill. Just like pilot. Or, * By supervisioned learning. This is what we know by "mentorship". You may don't know "how to start" if you learn by volume. With supervisioned learning, you can make the learning faster and enjoy the outcome earlier.

overgard 11y ago

You're entirely right, but it's a stupid plan. You know what happens when you get a bunch of college kids to build things? You get something that, uh, looks and acts like a thing built by a bunch of college kids. IE, a dumpster fire. It turns out experience matters. I can't even get mad at the people that perpetuate this, because they're going to get what they deserve.

spitfire 11y ago
A VC payday? Seriously though, that's what many of these people /will/ get. Worse, they'll actually believe it was their own talent that got them there. The world is a cruel and unfair place.
rwjwjuwjudf 11y ago
Many of the most valuable tech properties today were built by college kids, or better yet college dropouts. It turns out that having your whole life ahead of you matters, because you're more willing to take risks.
- fishnchips 11y ago
  Or maybe it's more about having less to lose. Once you have kids and mortgage you're less likely to take risks.
- overgard 11y ago
  My point isn't that young people are incapable (some of them are great), rather, that the people that think they can build something by taking advantage of naivete are going to quickly discover that for every young brilliant programmer, there's 10 people that will some day be good, but at the moment they're inexperienced and they'll create junk if they're not mentored. But it's true, many of these companies are designed to be flipped, technical excellence might be a secondary concern. Ninjas beware.
  - rwjwjuwjudf 11y ago
    Oh yeah, agreed, but capitalism doesn't care, just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks... Probably building something in grad school helps.