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Can we wait until they actually do or talk about doing something bad before making a stink about them doing bad things? This is kind of jumping at phantoms, and

Can we wait until they actually do or talk about doing something bad before making a stink about them doing bad things? This is kind of jumping at phantoms, and doing that too much will mean losing the ability to do it for real. Here's what's going on. OVRServer_x64 is, conceptually, a device-driver component for Oculus. It does things like handle the orientation sensor input and controls which app appears on the Oculus' display. This has been around since the very first prototypes, and since it is a piece of hardware, it's not like they could have gone without. None of the current titles in the Oculus store have in-game advertising. There's none in the first-party titles, nor in any of the third-party titles that I've tried. Instead, they use the traditional business model: pay up front. They're running a store, called Oculus Home, which competes with Steam. They know which games and experiences you buy on the store, and are probably measuring how many hours you spend in each, like Steam does. And that's it. This statement from the article is straight up false: > "An ad executive at Coke, for instance, could tell just how long you stared at the Coke bottle cleverly placed inside your favorite game as an in-game ad and use that data to better place it in the game for you next time." It's false because the Oculus Rift does not contain eye-tracking (only head-orientation tracking); because the software infrastructure for measuring that doesn't exist (though I suppose someone could write it); and because that isn't Oculus' business model.

Sir_Substance 11y ago
>because the software infrastructure for measuring that doesn't exist (though I suppose someone could write it); What the hell are you talking about? The endermen in minecraft change behavior based on whether you are looking at them or not, and minecraft has hardly a bastion of bleeding edge game engine technology. The difference between making an enderman attack if you look at it for more then 2 seconds and firing a metric if you look at a coke bottle for more than two seconds is pretty minimal. A metric tool that sends data on how long you keep certain objects within the center of your FOV can be backed with off the shelf free software[1]. The infrastructure is commonplace, well tested and used daily for a myriad of metric related tasks all over the world. [1] http://grafana.org/ http://grafana.org/
- wilg 11y ago
  If the software infrastructure does exist in Minecraft as you say, why isn't anyone mad about it potentially doing exactly what you describe with the actual product placements actually present in Minecraft? (https://store.xbox.com/en-US/Xbox-One/dlc/Minecraft-Xbox-One-Edition/582e7bcc-11bc-4702-ab1b-b31566f8e327 https://store.xbox.com/en-US/Xbox-One/dlc/Minecraft-Xbox-One...) The reason nobody is mad is because there is no evidence anything shady is going on there. Just like in this case with Oculus. It's possible for anyone to track pretty much any metric in any software and then analyze it. So saying it's possible doesn't really mean much.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    > regularly sends updates back to Facebook’s servers. That IS evidence of something shady going on. A display device does not need to send data over the network. This is already spyware. And no, the endermen in Minecraft do not send data back to Mojang when they detect you looking at them. That was obviously a an example of how someone could exploit head tracking data; it would still require exchanging data with Facebook... which the article claims OVRServer_x64.exe does.
- assocguilt 11y ago
  Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong. What's wrong with people like you who cannot admit they were wrong about something?
TrevorJ 11y ago
> it's not like they could have gone without. Then explain to me why this driver needs to phone home. Your comment completely ignores the context as well: the predilection of companies, Facebook included, has trended towards surveilling their customers at an alarming rate. The Coke example is possible on the current hardware because head orientation leaks largely the same data.
educar 11y ago
> Can we wait until they actually do or talk about doing something bad before making a stink about them doing bad things? This is kind of jumping at phantoms, and doing that too much will mean losing the ability to do it for real. Are you talking about the privacy aspect i.e the device regularly phoning home and sending data here?
wfo 11y ago
>Can we wait until they actually do or talk about doing something bad before making a stink about them doing bad things? This is kind of jumping at phantoms, and doing that too much will mean losing the ability to do it for real. I tend to think once they've done it it's too late: the product, once it's built, will be offered as a take-it-or-leave-it prospect, and lobbying for them to go back and re-engineer it to respect privacy is a losing proposition. We lost with Windows 10 and now there's no hope of it being fixed. I think in the beginnings of the product design cycle is exactly where these concerns should be voiced, and loudly.
wilg 11y ago
The Coke example makes no sense for a couple reasons: 1) Oculus' SDK does know where your head is pointing, but it has no idea what the game engine is actually rendering in that direction. It just warps the image the game engine gives it and passes it through to the headset. There's no real way to glean semantic information about what you're looking at through their platform. 2) If Coke wanted to track this, why would they track it through Oculus instead of just asking the game developer who has agreed to the product placement to track that information themselves? That's much easier technically and from a business standpoint. Of course, you could do this for any game or application, VR or otherwise. But I guess that makes it less of a story.
oxide 11y ago
then why is it phoning home? it's not normal for a driver to call home, is it? >None of the current titles in the Oculus store have in-game advertising. yet. you forgot the word yet.

Sir_Substance 11y ago

>because the software infrastructure for measuring that doesn't exist (though I suppose someone could write it); What the hell are you talking about? The endermen in minecraft change behavior based on whether you are looking at them or not, and minecraft has hardly a bastion of bleeding edge game engine technology. The difference between making an enderman attack if you look at it for more then 2 seconds and firing a metric if you look at a coke bottle for more than two seconds is pretty minimal. A metric tool that sends data on how long you keep certain objects within the center of your FOV can be backed with off the shelf free software[1]. The infrastructure is commonplace, well tested and used daily for a myriad of metric related tasks all over the world. [1] http://grafana.org/ http://grafana.org/

wilg 11y ago
If the software infrastructure does exist in Minecraft as you say, why isn't anyone mad about it potentially doing exactly what you describe with the actual product placements actually present in Minecraft? (https://store.xbox.com/en-US/Xbox-One/dlc/Minecraft-Xbox-One-Edition/582e7bcc-11bc-4702-ab1b-b31566f8e327 https://store.xbox.com/en-US/Xbox-One/dlc/Minecraft-Xbox-One...) The reason nobody is mad is because there is no evidence anything shady is going on there. Just like in this case with Oculus. It's possible for anyone to track pretty much any metric in any software and then analyze it. So saying it's possible doesn't really mean much.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  > regularly sends updates back to Facebook’s servers. That IS evidence of something shady going on. A display device does not need to send data over the network. This is already spyware. And no, the endermen in Minecraft do not send data back to Mojang when they detect you looking at them. That was obviously a an example of how someone could exploit head tracking data; it would still require exchanging data with Facebook... which the article claims OVRServer_x64.exe does.
assocguilt 11y ago
Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong. What's wrong with people like you who cannot admit they were wrong about something?

TrevorJ 11y ago

> it's not like they could have gone without. Then explain to me why this driver needs to phone home. Your comment completely ignores the context as well: the predilection of companies, Facebook included, has trended towards surveilling their customers at an alarming rate. The Coke example is possible on the current hardware because head orientation leaks largely the same data.

educar 11y ago

> Can we wait until they actually do or talk about doing something bad before making a stink about them doing bad things? This is kind of jumping at phantoms, and doing that too much will mean losing the ability to do it for real. Are you talking about the privacy aspect i.e the device regularly phoning home and sending data here?

wfo 11y ago

>Can we wait until they actually do or talk about doing something bad before making a stink about them doing bad things? This is kind of jumping at phantoms, and doing that too much will mean losing the ability to do it for real. I tend to think once they've done it it's too late: the product, once it's built, will be offered as a take-it-or-leave-it prospect, and lobbying for them to go back and re-engineer it to respect privacy is a losing proposition. We lost with Windows 10 and now there's no hope of it being fixed. I think in the beginnings of the product design cycle is exactly where these concerns should be voiced, and loudly.

wilg 11y ago

The Coke example makes no sense for a couple reasons: 1) Oculus' SDK does know where your head is pointing, but it has no idea what the game engine is actually rendering in that direction. It just warps the image the game engine gives it and passes it through to the headset. There's no real way to glean semantic information about what you're looking at through their platform. 2) If Coke wanted to track this, why would they track it through Oculus instead of just asking the game developer who has agreed to the product placement to track that information themselves? That's much easier technically and from a business standpoint. Of course, you could do this for any game or application, VR or otherwise. But I guess that makes it less of a story.

oxide 11y ago

then why is it phoning home? it's not normal for a driver to call home, is it? >None of the current titles in the Oculus store have in-game advertising. yet. you forgot the word yet.