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What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed
- musha68k 11y agoShame on anyone still for such an archaic form of "justice".
- Houstonymous 11y agoLet's not make blanket statements or anything.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- MajesticHobo 11y agoWhy not? Some practices are totally abhorrent and have no place in any liberal society.
- JBReefer 11y agoThat's only if you consider the only societies of value to be "liberal"
- MajesticHobo 11y agoCall it what you want. IMO, any society that recognizes the problems with capital punishment and accordingly outlaws it has at least some liberal tendencies.
- Houstonymous 11y agoThat's a pretty cheap cop-out, using the tendencies of something to justify calling it that something.
- wtbob 11y agoSome might say that the practice of allowing brutal murderers and rapists to live out their lives and die in peace is totally abhorrent and has no place in any liberal society. It's almost as though different rational people of good will disagree about moral matters.
- MajesticHobo 11y agoA couple points: > the practice of allowing brutal murderers and rapists to live out their lives and die in peace Unless I'm misreading you, that's a huge misrepresentation of what death penalty abolitionists advocate. I don't want violent criminals to have zero repercussions for their actions, and no present-day society I've ever heard of allows them to. But I agree with (what I perceive to be your greater) point about differences in personal moral code. I was merely speaking contextually about the general trend Western society has followed for the past few centuries -- like fewer, more lenient punishments and more respect for civil rights, among others.
- Houstonymous 11y agoMaybe I wasn't talking about Western / liberal society. Maybe most people don't currently live in that.
- Houstonymous 11y agoAnd what makes you think most of the world currently lives in a liberal society?
- dredmorbius 11y agoThere are cases in which blanket statements are valid. I'm hesitant to do so in the case of moral arguments, though I find the case in favour of the death penalty, particularly given the many, many abuses, and utter and final nature, phenomenally weak. That said, I disagree with the HN hive-mind's obliterating your comment.
- Houstonymous 11y agoAgree to disagree about the blanket statements, and I actually do agree that for what most people are picturing here, the death penalty should be abhorred. But, seriously, it's rough out there. Almost nobody actually lives in San Francisco, when you think about it. (Or similar.)
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- CapitalistCartr 11y agoIn the United States, innocence has never been grounds for an appeal, a stay, overturning, or clemency. Here in Florida, I could write an accurate algorithm for calculating the application of the Death Penalty. Skin darkness (literally, not race), IQ, wealth, sex are the relevant factors. The elements of the case are not. I'm not against the Death Penalty on general principle grounds; I'm against it because we clearly aren't to be trusted with it.
- rayiner 11y agoActual innocence is a grounds for vacating a conviction.
- CapitalistCartr 11y agoIn the USA, innocence isn't grounds for an appeal. Actual, post-conviction DNA tests aren't a basis. Errors at trial are. So good lawyers find one. Jury instructions, evidentiary errors, procedural, etc., which is why money buys justice.
- studentrob 11y agoWhat are you smoking? I'd ask for sources but this is an absurd idea. You don't even need innocence in the US. You need to show there is reasonable doubt that the individual is guilty. At least that's how it works during trial. I'm not going to claim this works flawlessly, nor that it justifies a death penalty, but let's be real here.
- CapitalistCartr 11y agoYou are completely misinformed. Reasonable doubt applies at trial, not on appeals. Also, the ad hominem adds nothing to your point. Edit: look at Herrera v. Collins (SCOTUS): "Petitioner's claim of actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence is not ground for federal habeas relief. United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit affirmed." Two questions were presented for the Supreme Court's review: Do the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments permit a state to execute an individual who is innocent of the crime for which he or she was convicted and sentenced to death? What post-conviction procedures are necessary to protect against the execution of an innocent person? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrera_v._Collins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrera_v._Collins
- synthecypher 11y agochmod +x whoami ./whoami
- telesilla 11y agoThis kind of emotional experience is beyond understanding for most of us (and hopefully remains so). The masterpiece of a film Army of Shadows by Jean-Pierre Melville has a scene in it, of an execution that .. (I won't continue with spoilers). It was one of the most powerful things I've ever watched that made me feel maybe just a tiny bit, what that might be like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Shadows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Shadows
- ahelwer 11y agoThere is also The Wall by Jean-Paul Sartre (warning, PDF): http://faculty.risd.edu/dkeefer/pod/wall.pdf http://faculty.risd.edu/dkeefer/pod/wall.pdf
- hackuser 11y agoWhy are stays left to the last minute? Death pealty cases and their appeals last many years.
- erikpukinskis 11y agoThe closer you get to the actual death, the sadder the story gets and the more people come out of the woodwork to try and help.
- goodcanadian 11y agoBecause a stay of execution is literally a (temporary) last recourse. Up until that time, you are pursuing the years of appeals or otherwise trying to get the conviction overturned.
- gtrubetskoy 11y agoFyodor Dostoevsky wrote some of his most significant works after his execution by firing squad was stayed at the last minute. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fyodor-dostoevsky-is-sentenced-to-death http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fyodor-dostoevsky... There is a vivid description of his experience in the novel "The Idiot", you can read it here: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2638/old/20081222-2638.txt http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2638/old/20081222-2638.txt, search for: "As to life in a prison" Or see it here with English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYN40R9Hjtg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYN40R9Hjtg Edit: s/began writing/wrote some of his most significant works/ (thank you dang)
- dang 11y ago> began writing Oh no, he'd published two novels before that, both significant, but for different reasons. Poor Folk was a maudlin debut but it made him the hottest new writer in Russia, briefly. Belinsky, the biggest critic of the day, famously kissed him when they were introduced. Now that he was a celebrity he thought he'd show them what he really could do, and came up with The Double, which is genius. But it bombed, and Dostoevsky became a has-been in his mid-twenties. It's still one of the best things he ever wrote, equal parts comic, tragic, and weird. It's also short, so one of the best first things to read by him. All that happened before he went to Siberia, which of course was transformative. His memoir of the prison camp, Notes From the House of the Dead, is another masterpiece and a sort of decryption key for all his later work. It was Tolstoy's favorite.
- SeanDav 11y agoThis would have been a far more interesting article if he had spoken more about his thoughts and feelings, rather than the mechanical processes.
- the_ancient 11y agoI found the mechanical process appalling.
- rdl 11y agoI find the factual, mechanical description more emotionally moving, because I can more easily put myself in the position of the writer. My emotions matter a lot more to me than what a (convicted) murderer says he's feeling -- I'm against the death penalty even in cases where the person is clearly guilty and a horrible person.
- jveld 11y agoDostoevsky (The Brothers Karamazov, Crime And Punishment) was sentenced to be executed by the Tsarist government in 1849. He was actually in front of the firing squad, waiting for his turn to die, when he learned that his sentence had been commuted to a measly 10 years hard labor in Siberia. One could argue that this was the defining moment of his life, and most of his greatest works were motivated in some way by the intensity of that experience. So yeah, for lots more on this, read Dostoevsky.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- svdr 11y agoOne of the main characters in Tolstoy's War and Peace (Pierre) was also almost executed. You can read the scene here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2600/2600-h/2600-h.htm#link2HCH0274 https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2600/2600-h/2600-h.htm#link2...
- sevenless 11y agoThe family of four he brutally murdered might have had an opinion on that, too.
- citricsquid 11y agoThere are victims and families of victims who do not support the death penalty. A documentary aired in the UK a few years ago that spoke with the family of a prison officer (Daniel Nagle) who was murdered, the perpetrator (Robert Pruett) had been sentenced to the death penalty and the Nagle family were against the sentence -- even though they believe him to be guilty of the murder. If you're in the UK you can watch that here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03zndw4/life-and-death-row-series-1-3-crisis-stage http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03zndw4/life-and-death... I'm not quite sure if I'm interpreting your comment correctly, apologies if I've misunderstood the point you're making.
- 1stop 11y agoBut there are families who clearly want revenge as well. Revenge or resiprocity seems a pretty core part of the human condition.
- coldtea 11y agoThey are the last ones who should have an opinion on the matter, as pain clouds their judgement towards revenge. Besides, they'd be saying the same things for anybody, if they were convinced or led to believe that he/she was the culprit, even if he/she were innocent. Only if they were against the death penalty should they be heard, because that would be a sign that they speak putting revenge and petty sentiments aside. The justice system shouldn't be a mechanism for revenge but for the protection of society.
- nommm-nommm 11y agoNot this particular family, but here's an opinion of a few other families: http://kwgn.com/2014/01/08/families-of-murder-victims-rally-against-death-penalty/ http://kwgn.com/2014/01/08/families-of-murder-victims-rally-...
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- throwaway_exer 11y agoIf the only reason for banning capital punishment in the USA was to prevent DA's from personally benefiting from "being tough on crime" in the next election for DA or governor, that would be enough. The entire American criminal system is beyond corrupt at this point.
- rdl 11y agoIt seems crazy -- there are so many independently-sufficient reasons to abolish the death penalty, argued from virtually any grounds, many of which otherwise are completely opposed.
- trothamel 11y agohttp://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/cooper-kevin.htm http://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/cooper-kevin.htm Has the first hand account of Joshua Ryen, who also experienced what it was like to almost get executed. I'm personally not a fan of the death penalty - I generally don't think it's worth the risk in effort, except perhaps in the case for people (eg. terrorist leaders) such that keeping them alive could result in a hostage situation. But I do think it's a little unfair to have a case like this presented in a completely one-sided way.
- emgoldstein 11y agoThe Ryen account is a little far down that page. Since we heard one story in anatomical detail, how about another? "The first time I met Kevin Cooper I was 8 years old and he slit my throat. He hit me with a hatchet and put a hole in my skull. He stabbed me twice, which broke my ribs and collapsed one lung. I lived only because I stuck four fingers in my neck to slow the bleeding, but I was too weak to move. I laid there 11 hours looking at my mother who was right beside me. I know now he came through the sliding glass door and attacked my dad first. He was lying on the bed and was struck in the dark without warning with the hatchet and knife. He was hit many times because there is a lot of blood on the wall on his side of the bed. My mother screamed and Cooper came around the bed and started hitting her. Somehow my dad was able to struggle between the bed and the closet but Cooper bludgeoned my father to death with the knife and hatchet, stabbing him 26 times and axing him 11. One of the blows severed his finger and it landed in the closet. My mother tried to get away but he caught her at the bottom of the bed and he stabbed her 25 times and axed her 7. All of us kids were drawn to the room by mom's screams. Jessica was killed in the doorway with 5 ax blows and 46 stabs. I won't say how many times my best friend Chris was stabbed and axed, not because it isn't important, but because I don't want to hurt his family in any way, and they are here. After Cooper killed everyone, and thought he had killed me, he went over to my sister and lifted her shirt and drew things on her stomach with the knife. Then he walked down the hallway, opened the refrigerator, and had a beer. I guess killing so many people can make a man thirsty." [EDIT: this is from Ryen's testimony in 2005.]
- xenadu02 11y ago
- ErikAugust 11y ago"I was supposed to be executed one minute after midnight on February 10, 2004. ... The prison also started sending a psychiatrist — it was clear that they wanted to make sure I was not going to commit suicide." So absurd!
- WalterBright 11y agoI oppose the death penalty. Not because I have sympathy for murderers, but because it is uncivilized to ritualistically kill people.
- jeevand 11y agoI understand that US justice system is completely biased against minorities (Mainly blacks) but i can't completely come to terms with total abolition of death penalty as expressed by many here on HN. Here are few incidents where i think death penalty can be justified (examples are from Norway which has abolished death penalty & India where it is very rarely carried out - only 5 from 1995) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajmal_Kasab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajmal_Kasab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masood_Azhar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masood_Azhar (Got released after a hijacking and founded JeM)
- alextgordon 11y agoIt's interesting that you give the example of Breivik. Don't you think that a far-right nutcase like him would relish the reinstatement of the death penalty?
- yrro 11y agoA reformed Breivik, once released, would be able to do some good by working against his former cause, speaking to prevent others from following down the path that he took.
- interfixus 11y agoI live in Denmark. As do around 5.7 million others, all told. We have no death penalty. In 2015 we had 41 cases of homicide. It can be done.
- 1stop 11y agoDenmark doesn't exactly have the cultural baggage the US has. There isn't a gun culture* (just picking one aspect) at all in Denmark, there is a rich culture in the US to the point that people think you are changing the identity of the country if you reform gun law. Stating that a progressive state that never had such problems can solve them has no meaning. * guns would be the leading cause of homicide in the US.
- sokoloff 11y agoLeading mechanism, not cause, IMO.
- 1stop 11y agoIs there any real difference? Like a trigger is a leading mechanism, but it's the combustion that fires the bullet?
- sokoloff 11y agoThe cause (IMO) is a human who lacks self-control, anger-management, moral compass, or is otherwise broken in a way that causes/allows them to intentionally take the life of a fellow human. The gun/trigger/bullet/gunpowder/whatever is a mechanism of the murder, not the cause. (I'm not a rabid "gun nut" [nor even a gun owner], but blaming guns as the cause is just as fundamentally misplaced as blaming a baseball bat, knife, or rope, IMO.)
- 1stop 11y agoBut the facts don't reflect what you are saying. Removal of guns from a society lowers total murders, it doesn't just move those murders to some other weapon/cause. Look at Australia's crime statistics, or Canada, or Britain before and after serious gun control. They all show this to be true.
- remarkEon 11y agoI simply don't think it wise to entrust the State, with a completely fallible justice system, with the power to end a citizen's life. Haven't quite worked out the philosophical grounding of that argument, but I think that's where I'll start.
- known 11y agoIsn't community service better than capital punishment?
- bb101 11y agoI don't get it. Cooper's stay of execution was granted in 2004, most probably due to facts that became known at the time. This article was published in 2016, and he is still in prison - for the same crime? Twelve years have passed and no progress has been made in determining whether Cooper was responsible or not?