4 ms·

Arts education really needs to decouple from vocational education, however this happens (tracked system like Germany? Just split Arts and STEM apart? Plenty of

Arts education really needs to decouple from vocational education, however this happens (tracked system like Germany? Just split Arts and STEM apart? Plenty of STEM is closer to Arts than vocational training). If a literature PhD isn't going to land you a six-figure job then maybe it should re-calibrate its tuition and time expectations to be something that a professionally active adult can pursue simultaneous to their career.

btdiehr 11y ago
Serious question... Why don't these active adults just read some books and watch free online lectures instead? I fail to see the value a university is providing here.
- VLM 11y ago
  Name brand recognition
- fnovd 11y ago
  Actual interactions with faculty and other students are what the university provides. Watching lectures and reading books isn't the same thing as "getting your hands dirty" with other people in the same room who are interested (or are experts) in the same topic.
- avs733 11y ago
  I'm sorry but that is terrifyingly shallow. The consumption of information is not nearly the same as the processing of information.
  - btdiehr 11y ago
    Are you trying to imply that those who don't or can't afford university aren't processing information? Now that is terrifyingly shallow.
    - alecbaldwinlol 11y ago
      You're being downvoted by plenty of people who have devoted their lives to pleasing the spouse that beats them, aka the academic profession. Congrats on rattling the hornets nest!
      - btdiehr 11y ago
        The one thing academics love to do is argue about the merits of academics existing. You could devout an entire PhD to it!
        alecbaldwinlol 11y ago
        I love it. It's also why they are so against distance learning (Quartz has a poll out on it, only 30% of faculty "support" it). Academics have the gaul to set up an extortionist racket, and then find someone else to pay the costs of running it!
  - bbcbasic 11y ago
    I can go to meetups and get a university experience for an evening in terms of the quality of talks, the people I can meet, the help I can get. IRC has loads of great channels to share information. Even Reddit. Flipside is at uni, I found most students more interested in beer and parties and not much support outside of tutor groups. I.e. not much different from watching a bunch of videos and reading books, with a bit of a meetup now and then. I am learning CS stuff online for free and because I can focus on the areas I am interested in, pace myself and not study for an exam it is much more fun. Funny enough it would seem weird to people to take 2 years off work to watch youtube videos about CS but OK to do a masters degree. I guess the piece of paper is defintiely worth something.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  The purpose of a Ph.D. is to create and advance human knowledge, not just to learn some stuff and get a certificate. You generally can't get a Ph.D. without conducting and then communicating original research. Watching videos and reading books might help with that but are not sufficient by themselves. In literature you of course do have to read in order to do your research. But the hard part is not the reading, it is the originality. That's what you need an advisor, committee, professors, and colleagues for: to challenge you to prove you're not just reiterating what someone else already said.
VLM 11y ago
Human experience and history is circular. In the old days, only the upper classes could send their second, third, n-th sons to uni to read books. Once the middle classes figured out they could hang with the upper classes just by paying (cheap) tuition, it sent all aspirational and up and coming middles to uni, to hang out with the uppers, who were promptly overrun outside the ivies. We're now slowly and painfully rotating back to the stage of only independently wealthy uppers will read books at uni as a career. Then maybe 2, 3, 4 generations in the future some bright spark in the middle classes will notice a lit degree lets a middle class kid social climb and hang out with the upper classes, the uni admins will notice they can literally charge the middle class kids anything they feel like charging just like medical, rotating the system back to where we are now.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  To slightly re-frame what you said: The upper classes could have their children educated in a way that wouldn't result in a well-paying job, because they were upper class and the children didn't need a well-paying job in order to have a reasonable life. The middle class jumped in when association with the upper class was the ticket to a better life. But now, technical training is the ticket, and those who are reading literature are condemned to mostly low-paying jobs, so literature becomes the province of those who don't have to work for money.
giaour 11y ago
Literature PhD students in the US generally receive a small stipend (~$24,000) and pay no tuition.

btdiehr 11y ago

Serious question... Why don't these active adults just read some books and watch free online lectures instead? I fail to see the value a university is providing here.

VLM 11y ago
Name brand recognition
fnovd 11y ago
Actual interactions with faculty and other students are what the university provides. Watching lectures and reading books isn't the same thing as "getting your hands dirty" with other people in the same room who are interested (or are experts) in the same topic.
avs733 11y ago
I'm sorry but that is terrifyingly shallow. The consumption of information is not nearly the same as the processing of information.
- btdiehr 11y ago
  Are you trying to imply that those who don't or can't afford university aren't processing information? Now that is terrifyingly shallow.
  - alecbaldwinlol 11y ago
    You're being downvoted by plenty of people who have devoted their lives to pleasing the spouse that beats them, aka the academic profession. Congrats on rattling the hornets nest!
    - btdiehr 11y ago
      The one thing academics love to do is argue about the merits of academics existing. You could devout an entire PhD to it!
      - alecbaldwinlol 11y ago
        I love it. It's also why they are so against distance learning (Quartz has a poll out on it, only 30% of faculty "support" it). Academics have the gaul to set up an extortionist racket, and then find someone else to pay the costs of running it!
- bbcbasic 11y ago
  I can go to meetups and get a university experience for an evening in terms of the quality of talks, the people I can meet, the help I can get. IRC has loads of great channels to share information. Even Reddit. Flipside is at uni, I found most students more interested in beer and parties and not much support outside of tutor groups. I.e. not much different from watching a bunch of videos and reading books, with a bit of a meetup now and then. I am learning CS stuff online for free and because I can focus on the areas I am interested in, pace myself and not study for an exam it is much more fun. Funny enough it would seem weird to people to take 2 years off work to watch youtube videos about CS but OK to do a masters degree. I guess the piece of paper is defintiely worth something.
snowwrestler 11y ago
The purpose of a Ph.D. is to create and advance human knowledge, not just to learn some stuff and get a certificate. You generally can't get a Ph.D. without conducting and then communicating original research. Watching videos and reading books might help with that but are not sufficient by themselves. In literature you of course do have to read in order to do your research. But the hard part is not the reading, it is the originality. That's what you need an advisor, committee, professors, and colleagues for: to challenge you to prove you're not just reiterating what someone else already said.

VLM 11y ago

Human experience and history is circular. In the old days, only the upper classes could send their second, third, n-th sons to uni to read books. Once the middle classes figured out they could hang with the upper classes just by paying (cheap) tuition, it sent all aspirational and up and coming middles to uni, to hang out with the uppers, who were promptly overrun outside the ivies. We're now slowly and painfully rotating back to the stage of only independently wealthy uppers will read books at uni as a career. Then maybe 2, 3, 4 generations in the future some bright spark in the middle classes will notice a lit degree lets a middle class kid social climb and hang out with the upper classes, the uni admins will notice they can literally charge the middle class kids anything they feel like charging just like medical, rotating the system back to where we are now.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
To slightly re-frame what you said: The upper classes could have their children educated in a way that wouldn't result in a well-paying job, because they were upper class and the children didn't need a well-paying job in order to have a reasonable life. The middle class jumped in when association with the upper class was the ticket to a better life. But now, technical training is the ticket, and those who are reading literature are condemned to mostly low-paying jobs, so literature becomes the province of those who don't have to work for money.

giaour 11y ago

Literature PhD students in the US generally receive a small stipend (~$24,000) and pay no tuition.