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Exchanged comments with Cloudflare's CEO on the topic and in my opinion it appears that they simply don't understand that their view of the situation is skewed.

• d_theorist 11y ago
  It's Cloudflare, not Cloudflair.
  • nxzero 11y ago
    Thanks, fixed the typo!
    • d_theorist 11y ago
      :) Actually, I got it wrong as well, because it's really CloudFlare.
  • Reedx 11y ago
    Cloudflair is how their employees express themselves.
  • chatmasta 11y ago
    Also Tor, not TOR...
    • nxzero 11y ago
      It was TOR, now it's Tor. I like TOR better, since it makes it clear the letters have a meaning.
• ejcx 11y ago
  The only correspondence you had with the CloudFlare CEO in that thread was: > eastdakota: I work for CloudFlare. We don't get anything from Google for using reCAPTCHA. I think you might have gotten a username confused.
  • nxzero 11y ago
    Why do you believe I'm mistaken? eastdakota, is the Cloudflare CEO's account.
• jerf 11y ago
  Of course CloudFlare's "view" of the situation is "skewed". So's the Tor project's. So's the view of the website operators receiving this traffic. Cloudflare's post acknowledge the fact that there are at least three major points of view on this problem. The Tor project, by contrast, is increasingly striking me as taking on a petulant tone by refusing to acknowledge that and acting (implicitly if nothing else) as if their view is the only one. To be honest, the core problem here is not Cloudflare. The core problem is that their customers don't really want Tor traffic. Cloudflare is, to my eye, bending over backwards for Tor compared to what I'd expect from a corporation, however it may feel to Tor. I would suggest the Tor project and its users, however annoyed they may be at their day-to-day experience, are ill-advised to take a petulant tone here, lest Cloudflare indeed give their customers the ability to whitelist and blacklist Tor as a whole... because I completely agree with Cloudflare that effectively nobody is going to whitelist it.
  • nxzero 11y ago
    Wrong, Google is Cloudflare partner, so it is the opposite, at the very least, one company (Google) loves the fact Cloudflare is doing what they're doing; my estimates peg the value of the data in the hundreds of millions based on what Google already pays to get the same type of data from users. Second, volume counts do not equal session counts and I find it very hard to believe that a human non-abussive human session looks the same as an abussive session. If true, then it's Cloudflare that's abusing users and exploiting the situation, not TOR. Also, TOR users are not blocked, but flagged to provided data to Google. Also, Cloudflare's clients like don't even know about the issue since according to Cloudflare they're flagging IPs, not TOR.
    • jerf 11y ago
      Did you intend this as a reply to something else? I can't even connect your comment to what I said. It starts with "wrong" but doesn't seem to address anything I said.
      • nxzero 11y ago
        Please bullet/number your concerns as self-contained statements and I'll explicitly reference them. And yes, my response is to your comment, though do see how it's possible it's ambiguous to how I'm addressing your concerns. Thanks for the comment.
• kordless 11y ago
  Cloudflare's purpose is to make money. If anyone thinks they are here to help make the world better, that's a naive view. Tor's purpose is to help people access data that may be inaccessible to them without it and to help guard against invasion of privacy. While those things can be used for illicit purposes (as shown by the amount of rouge traffic on Tor exit nodes) the return on quality of life for the whole is greatly improved. Tor literally makes the world a better place, regardless of the fact malicious traffic also comes out of it. Cloudflare does not make the world better for everyone, but it does a great job of making the world better for those who have access to resources, such as dedicated IPs and venture capitalists. Capitalism has failed, and it's starting to force that fail onto the Internet in a big way. We need to be smarter about how we approach building trusted infrastructure. All that starts with how we approach building infrastructure companies. If it's an infrastructure service model and it ain't bootstrapped and sustainable, don't use it.
  • drinchev 11y ago
    That's a sad statement. Cloudflare is one of my role model for publicity and profit tactics. Everyone can use Cloudflare for free. Companies are their only customers.
    • nxzero 11y ago
      Cloudflare literally and knowingly sucks the life out of people by consuming their time and forcing them to perform labor for free to the benefit of their business partners to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. Unless they attempt to change, sorry, but they are a bad company, potiental evil if the data is being used to dox TOR users via a NSL.
    • kordless 11y ago
      I hear that statement may make you sad, but statements themselves hold no emotions, unless you are speaking for the feelings of those who made the statement. I don't allow others to speak for my feelings and I try to not speak for theirs. The hard fact is that capitalism is a complex type of game theory, with the objective of winning and making more money. If there are those that think that building the best infrastructure we can for all is dependent on building companies that make VCs and limited partnerships even more money, I will do whatever is in my power to dispel those beliefs. I do this because I believe our future is dependent on it, not because I'm sad about it. If anything, I don't trust the current process.