6 ms·

>> like removing the library from repository, what happened to left-pad > This was entirely npm's fault for allowing it. Not entirely. npm's fault is more alo

by dozzie 11y ago

>> like removing the library from repository, what happened to left-pad > This was entirely npm's fault for allowing it. Not entirely. npm's fault is more along the lines of fsckup, and that happens from time to time. It's everybody else's fault for including such a trivial module to their code (I mean, those who included it directly), what leads to much bigger exposure to such things (because there's much more modules to depend on). >> but also suddenly changing interface and/or call semantics, bumping only patchlevel part of version number > This is actually less likely with tiny modules. Times the number of the modules. Or rather, (1.0 - likeness) ^ count(modules). You end up with much more fragile application. And even when we put that aside, you still have large surface for all those unlikely events when somebody makes a mistake, but it's not from the publishing and versioning ground. > If it were a large module like underscore, and its just changing this one tiny function a little bit, its okay if they bump the minor verision number, right? Well, it broke your program because out of those 100 functions you were using exactly that one. There are two issues here. First, the new release was probably totally unnecessary. Why not bundle several such changes together? And semantic versioning scheme calls for increase of major number whenever the change is backwards-incompatible. Too bad that the change was tiny. So no, it's not "okay if they bump the minor version number". Second, if you were only using one function for those 100 functions, you screwed up. You probably didn't needed that one tiny function that much, so you added an unnecessary dependency. It's the same mentality of micromodules that leads to a dependency fractal, which in turn leads to a fragile codebase. Adding a dependency has its cost, but it costs in the (somewhat) distant future. So you're taking some debt now, to repay later at much higher price, except probably you don't see the price at the decision moment and you don't realize it's an instalment when you need to repay part of it.

jalfresi 11y ago
"Adding a dependency has its cost, but it costs in the (somewhat) distant future. So you're taking some debt now, to repay later at much higher price, except probably you don't see the price at the decision moment and you don't realize it's an instalment when you need to repay part of it." That is a very nice and succinct summary of dependancies
spion 11y ago
> It's everybody else's fault for including such a trivial module to their code (I mean, those who included it directly), what leads to much bigger exposure to such things (because there's much more modules to depend on) But npm disallowing unpublishing makes that entire point moot. There is no more difference. > Times the number of the modules. Or rather, (1.0 - likeness) ^ count(modules). You end up with much more fragile application. Thats not how it works. A tiny module making an incompatible change to its sole function is not likely to bump a minor version, but quite likely to bump a major one. A tiny module also has less updates overall because there is no need to constantly add new stuff to it, like it often is the case for large modules. When I add lodash as a dependency, I'm N times more likely to have to update it during a given period than just adding padStart as a dependency (where N is the number of functions it has). If I only use 30% of lodash (not a small percentage), its quite likely that 70% of those updates are about parts I don't care about and haven't taken the time to understand. Small modules have very different dynamics and costs compared to large ones. They are only the same in name (and maybe they shouldn't be called modules, actually). > First, the new release was probably totally unnecessary. Why not bundle several such changes together? And semantic versioning scheme calls for increase of major number whenever the change is backwards-incompatible. Too bad that the change was tiny. So no, it's not "okay if they bump the minor version number". There we go, another cost of large modules. They are both slower to update things you care about and less likely to have an update you do care about :) And now suppose you are another user that doesn't use that 1 particular function out of 100. But for some reason the library bumped a major version number! Why? Because they changed a function you don't care about. Great, now you have to review every single change, including those you don't care about. > Second, if you were only using one function for those 100 functions, you screwed up. You probably didn't needed that one tiny function that much, so you added an unnecessary dependency. It's the same mentality of micromodules that leads to a dependency fractal, which in turn leads to a fragile codebase. What if I need two, or 3, or 30%? Where does it stop? Usually when I add a micro-module, I need close to 100% of it. Seems good enough to me. - This only leaves us with malicious (or protesting) actors, which would make a malicious update. But that risk grows with the number of authors, not with the number of modules. Still, because the problem isn't the module size itself, there are other ways to solve it :) (keeping your own author whitelist, deep-pinning version numbers for less trusted modules to ensure they are immutable, web of trust, reputation systems and so on) - It saddens me that everyone took this as a chance to attack tiny modules as the scapegoat. I think that the node community is really onto something here. Its not yet perfectly developed by any means - there is a lot of work left - but that doesn't mean we have to scrap the entire idea. There is a chance here for npm to try hard to come up with nice trust/security/immutability features to accomodate these new module dynamics better. edit: Another reason it saddens me is that everyone missed the point of azer's protest. I guess people just don't care unless their stuff is on the line. If leftPad was named `kik`, perhaps we would've had an entirely different conversation now.

by dozzie 11y ago

jalfresi 11y ago

"Adding a dependency has its cost, but it costs in the (somewhat) distant future. So you're taking some debt now, to repay later at much higher price, except probably you don't see the price at the decision moment and you don't realize it's an instalment when you need to repay part of it." That is a very nice and succinct summary of dependancies

spion 11y ago

> It's everybody else's fault for including such a trivial module to their code (I mean, those who included it directly), what leads to much bigger exposure to such things (because there's much more modules to depend on) But npm disallowing unpublishing makes that entire point moot. There is no more difference. > Times the number of the modules. Or rather, (1.0 - likeness) ^ count(modules). You end up with much more fragile application. Thats not how it works. A tiny module making an incompatible change to its sole function is not likely to bump a minor version, but quite likely to bump a major one. A tiny module also has less updates overall because there is no need to constantly add new stuff to it, like it often is the case for large modules. When I add lodash as a dependency, I'm N times more likely to have to update it during a given period than just adding padStart as a dependency (where N is the number of functions it has). If I only use 30% of lodash (not a small percentage), its quite likely that 70% of those updates are about parts I don't care about and haven't taken the time to understand. Small modules have very different dynamics and costs compared to large ones. They are only the same in name (and maybe they shouldn't be called modules, actually). > First, the new release was probably totally unnecessary. Why not bundle several such changes together? And semantic versioning scheme calls for increase of major number whenever the change is backwards-incompatible. Too bad that the change was tiny. So no, it's not "okay if they bump the minor version number". There we go, another cost of large modules. They are both slower to update things you care about and less likely to have an update you do care about :) And now suppose you are another user that doesn't use that 1 particular function out of 100. But for some reason the library bumped a major version number! Why? Because they changed a function you don't care about. Great, now you have to review every single change, including those you don't care about. > Second, if you were only using one function for those 100 functions, you screwed up. You probably didn't needed that one tiny function that much, so you added an unnecessary dependency. It's the same mentality of micromodules that leads to a dependency fractal, which in turn leads to a fragile codebase. What if I need two, or 3, or 30%? Where does it stop? Usually when I add a micro-module, I need close to 100% of it. Seems good enough to me. - This only leaves us with malicious (or protesting) actors, which would make a malicious update. But that risk grows with the number of authors, not with the number of modules. Still, because the problem isn't the module size itself, there are other ways to solve it :) (keeping your own author whitelist, deep-pinning version numbers for less trusted modules to ensure they are immutable, web of trust, reputation systems and so on) - It saddens me that everyone took this as a chance to attack tiny modules as the scapegoat. I think that the node community is really onto something here. Its not yet perfectly developed by any means - there is a lot of work left - but that doesn't mean we have to scrap the entire idea. There is a chance here for npm to try hard to come up with nice trust/security/immutability features to accomodate these new module dynamics better. edit: Another reason it saddens me is that everyone missed the point of azer's protest. I guess people just don't care unless their stuff is on the line. If leftPad was named `kik`, perhaps we would've had an entirely different conversation now.