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> Both cars will start at $30,000 or less after federal tax credits of $7,500 are applied. And both go at least 200 miles on a fully charged battery. The Bolt i

by jvm 11y ago

> Both cars will start at $30,000 or less after federal tax credits of $7,500 are applied. And both go at least 200 miles on a fully charged battery. The Bolt is a five-passenger hatchback that boasts cargo space and more legroom for rear passengers—front-seat backs are an inch thinner than in most cars. Looks almost identical specs-wise to Chevy Bolt, which will be available at the end of 2016 rather than 2017. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-31/tesla-s-newest-electric-enemy-chevy http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-31/tesla-s-ne...

mikeash 11y ago
The Tesla is a bit cheaper. I don't think the Bolt has any Autopilot-like options. Far more importantly, the Bolt has no real fast charging infrastructure, either existing or planned. If you like to drive to places more than 200 miles away, there's still only one company with an EV that can reasonably do that.
- 11402101 11y ago
  Supercharging network should be irrelevant in my mind. If you need to drive more than 200 miles away, you need ICE. Assuming you could get a 100% full charge in 30 minutes at a supercharger, and 210 miles of range at 60mph, you are driving 3.5 hours and standing around for 30 minutes. Meanwhile, ICE can get you 400 miles, or 6.5 hours of driving at 60mph, on a 15 minute gas fill up. Electrics are great for a lot of reasons, but long road trips in a Model 3 is going to be a lot of time staring at clouds.
  - bdunn 11y ago
    I own a Model S and have clocked 23k miles on it over the last year, most of which on long roadtrips. I love it. The car mostly drives itself between superchargers, and the SCs are usually next to coffee shops or restaurants. I don't mind getting up and stretching / having a drink every few hours. But if minimizing recharging/refueling is your main priority, yeah, you can't beat ICE.
    - rconti 11y ago
      As a high performance driving enthusiast, I am very receptive to electric cars. I've hammered on the Roadster and Model S pretty hard on close courses, and instruct others. I put money down on a Model 3 today. That said, "15 minutes to refuel" an ICE is way overstated; it's more like 5 tops, including a piss break and cleaning the windshield. I don't disagree that the supercharger setup is great (I have a friend who does deployments), and it would come in handy for my regular bay area<->san diego roadtrips. That said, Tejon Ranch to San Diego is kind of pushing it on a slightly lower range S, and 2x 30min stops is non-trival for most people. I just finished a 4000mi southwest roadtrip (incidentally, a piss break in BFE Utah had me at an unexpected supercharger station), and we're a ways from where I'm comfortable doing such a trip on electricity. But that's fine -- that's my hangup, not a technical problem, and not something that can't be solved relatively soon. If electric adoption continues to ramp up as quickly as it has, finding a station won't be an issue, it'll just be a minor inconvenience to spend 25 mins more charging up -- which, again, is probably a worthwhile tradeoff for lower operating costs, and considering that 98% of customer miles involve regular end-of-day recharges. Incidentally, my quickest roadtrip was down the west coast at an average speed of 75mph; 900 miles in about 11h with only a single fuel stop. By stopping in Oregon, where the clerk fills your car for you, I was able to receive a full tank of fuel, a piss break, and a gas station hotdog and soda in approximately 2 minutes' time. YMMV :)
  - mikeash 11y ago
    I love how every time I bring this up, somebody feels the need to mansplain to me how impractical it is in reality, as if I'm not speaking from experience. I've driven my Model S on several long trips, including DC to Florida and back this winter. I'm planning a trip to Montreal this summer. At no point in this do I wish I had an ICE car for the trip, let alone "need" one. In fact, there's no other car (except maybe a Model X) I'd rather do this sort of trip in. If you're the sort of person who grabs a sandwich while gassing up and eats it behind the wheel, like the commenter down below, then yes, the need to charge is going to really mess with you. But if you're the sort of person who still sits down for your meals during road trips and takes reasonable bathroom/stretch breaks, it hardly makes a difference. Does the need to charge slow you down? Yes. Does it slow you down a lot? No. Does it mean you "need ICE" for any long trip? Absolutely not. In my experience, it slows you down by something like 10-15%. In exchange, you get a smooth, quiet ride that doesn't leave you tired at the end of the day's driving.
    - 11402101 11y ago
      I'm not trying to "mansplain" to you at all, whatever that means, but it is always a joy to have your comments dismissed through meaningless terms by a Tesla owner. Being dismissive of others for having a differing opinion is just unproductive to turning people towards Tesla. I am just trying to point out that to some people, standing and pointing at superchargers as some viable way to make it cross country is really dreadful, and yet people still try to sell them as though they are the most amazing thing. I have also recently driven from DC to FL. In all, it was about 1000 miles one-way. I had to stop for gas twice, filled up when I got there, and filled up twice on the way back. Let's say that adds 30 minutes each way to a 14 hour trip (and yes, you can certainly fill up, use the rest room, and sit down to eat in 15 minutes - it's not a 5 course meal, it's a roadtrip). If I compare that to having to stop every 200 miles - again assuming that you could get a 100% charge in 30 minutes, which AFAIK you don't, you get to 80% or so - you would need to stop 4 times on the way for 30 minutes each. You have now arrived 1.5 hours later than I did. And honestly, what do you do for 30 minutes at each of these stops? If you left at 9am, you would stop for lunch at noon, second lunch at 3pm, dinner at 6, and second dinner at 9 in a Tesla. And then you're saying "you get a smooth, quiet ride that doesn't leave you tired at the end of the day's driving", but honestly, just buy a nicer car. What are we comparing, a $75000 Tesla and a $15000 Kia? There are so many wonderfully comfortable ICE cruisers out there, test drive an Acura TLX, quiet and comfortable, same price as a Tesla 3 with double the range. I feel like we are in the early days where people really try to downplay and apologize for the charging issues on electric cars, but it's not the way it has to be. Musk showed that very amazing 'drive up battery replacement' thing awhile back, and then it just died. How awesome would it have been if that became reality, rather than just plunking down superchargers every couple hundred miles? Sorry I don't mean to rant, it's just incredibly awkward trying to point things out when Tesla owners/fanboys are so excited and dismissive of anybody who prefers to drive with an ICE.
aerovistae 11y ago
As if to suggest people wouldn't be willing to wait a year to get the 3 instead of the Bolt. Do you really think these two products have equivalent level of appeal? I'm sorry, I may be missing something re: specs, but can you point to where it says that the Bolt will go 0-60 in <6s? Also, does the Bolt have a nationwide supercharging network? Does it have autopilot? Does it have an astounding, unparalleled safety rating?
- mdorazio 11y ago
  Sure. Planned 0-60 in under 7 seconds for the Bolt [1] with similar fast charging capability at suitable chargers. If we're going to split hairs over being a second faster off the line when it's already not even as fast as significantly cheaper cars, then I'm not sure what to say. The lack of a supercharger network is definitely a downside for Chevy, but for your average commuter that shouldn't be a major issue. Please also keep in mind that autopilot is not free for the Model 3 (or Model S) - it's a $3,000 upgrade. Is the Bolt actually a better car? No, but I think it's evidence that if automakers actually get serious about electric they can put together something competitive and bring it to market far faster than Tesla. [1] http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/news/a27858/chevy-bolt-0-60-charging-time/ http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/news...
  - mikeash 11y ago
    I think the lack of a supercharger network is going to be huge. Yes, for your average commuter it shouldn't be a major issue, but it will be just the same. How to take road trips is the number one question/concern people have when I show them my Model S. There are many arguments to make about how it shouldn't matter, because long road trips are rare, you can take a different car, or rent a car, etc. But people just don't care. They don't want to spend a bunch of money or a car they can't drive to Grandma's house for Christmas, never mind that this is only an issue once a year and can be worked around. Tiny nitpick: autopilot for the S and X (we'll see for the 3) is a $2,500 upgrade if you order it with the car. It's $3,000 if you activate it later. Incidentally, $2,500 is about how much more expensive the Bolt is than the Model 3.
bluthru 11y ago
I'd definitely wait a year to not drive a car that ugly.
Shengbo 11y ago
It's just my opinion, but I think the Chevy looks awful compared to the Model 3.
illumin8 11y ago
Correction: the bolt only seats 4 adults. Specs aren't everything - you can bet the Chevy will have cheap plastic parts, and resale value will be atrocious due to poor build quality. From what I've seen, Tesla vehicles have better resale value than almost any other car.
ryanhuff 11y ago
The $7,500 is in effect for the first 200,000 sold by the manufacturer. I don't think many of the people who preordered will have their car in time to take advantage of the tax credit.

by jvm 11y ago

mikeash 11y ago

The Tesla is a bit cheaper. I don't think the Bolt has any Autopilot-like options. Far more importantly, the Bolt has no real fast charging infrastructure, either existing or planned. If you like to drive to places more than 200 miles away, there's still only one company with an EV that can reasonably do that.

11402101 11y ago
Supercharging network should be irrelevant in my mind. If you need to drive more than 200 miles away, you need ICE. Assuming you could get a 100% full charge in 30 minutes at a supercharger, and 210 miles of range at 60mph, you are driving 3.5 hours and standing around for 30 minutes. Meanwhile, ICE can get you 400 miles, or 6.5 hours of driving at 60mph, on a 15 minute gas fill up. Electrics are great for a lot of reasons, but long road trips in a Model 3 is going to be a lot of time staring at clouds.
- bdunn 11y ago
  I own a Model S and have clocked 23k miles on it over the last year, most of which on long roadtrips. I love it. The car mostly drives itself between superchargers, and the SCs are usually next to coffee shops or restaurants. I don't mind getting up and stretching / having a drink every few hours. But if minimizing recharging/refueling is your main priority, yeah, you can't beat ICE.
  - rconti 11y ago
    As a high performance driving enthusiast, I am very receptive to electric cars. I've hammered on the Roadster and Model S pretty hard on close courses, and instruct others. I put money down on a Model 3 today. That said, "15 minutes to refuel" an ICE is way overstated; it's more like 5 tops, including a piss break and cleaning the windshield. I don't disagree that the supercharger setup is great (I have a friend who does deployments), and it would come in handy for my regular bay area<->san diego roadtrips. That said, Tejon Ranch to San Diego is kind of pushing it on a slightly lower range S, and 2x 30min stops is non-trival for most people. I just finished a 4000mi southwest roadtrip (incidentally, a piss break in BFE Utah had me at an unexpected supercharger station), and we're a ways from where I'm comfortable doing such a trip on electricity. But that's fine -- that's my hangup, not a technical problem, and not something that can't be solved relatively soon. If electric adoption continues to ramp up as quickly as it has, finding a station won't be an issue, it'll just be a minor inconvenience to spend 25 mins more charging up -- which, again, is probably a worthwhile tradeoff for lower operating costs, and considering that 98% of customer miles involve regular end-of-day recharges. Incidentally, my quickest roadtrip was down the west coast at an average speed of 75mph; 900 miles in about 11h with only a single fuel stop. By stopping in Oregon, where the clerk fills your car for you, I was able to receive a full tank of fuel, a piss break, and a gas station hotdog and soda in approximately 2 minutes' time. YMMV :)
- mikeash 11y ago
  I love how every time I bring this up, somebody feels the need to mansplain to me how impractical it is in reality, as if I'm not speaking from experience. I've driven my Model S on several long trips, including DC to Florida and back this winter. I'm planning a trip to Montreal this summer. At no point in this do I wish I had an ICE car for the trip, let alone "need" one. In fact, there's no other car (except maybe a Model X) I'd rather do this sort of trip in. If you're the sort of person who grabs a sandwich while gassing up and eats it behind the wheel, like the commenter down below, then yes, the need to charge is going to really mess with you. But if you're the sort of person who still sits down for your meals during road trips and takes reasonable bathroom/stretch breaks, it hardly makes a difference. Does the need to charge slow you down? Yes. Does it slow you down a lot? No. Does it mean you "need ICE" for any long trip? Absolutely not. In my experience, it slows you down by something like 10-15%. In exchange, you get a smooth, quiet ride that doesn't leave you tired at the end of the day's driving.
  - 11402101 11y ago
    I'm not trying to "mansplain" to you at all, whatever that means, but it is always a joy to have your comments dismissed through meaningless terms by a Tesla owner. Being dismissive of others for having a differing opinion is just unproductive to turning people towards Tesla. I am just trying to point out that to some people, standing and pointing at superchargers as some viable way to make it cross country is really dreadful, and yet people still try to sell them as though they are the most amazing thing. I have also recently driven from DC to FL. In all, it was about 1000 miles one-way. I had to stop for gas twice, filled up when I got there, and filled up twice on the way back. Let's say that adds 30 minutes each way to a 14 hour trip (and yes, you can certainly fill up, use the rest room, and sit down to eat in 15 minutes - it's not a 5 course meal, it's a roadtrip). If I compare that to having to stop every 200 miles - again assuming that you could get a 100% charge in 30 minutes, which AFAIK you don't, you get to 80% or so - you would need to stop 4 times on the way for 30 minutes each. You have now arrived 1.5 hours later than I did. And honestly, what do you do for 30 minutes at each of these stops? If you left at 9am, you would stop for lunch at noon, second lunch at 3pm, dinner at 6, and second dinner at 9 in a Tesla. And then you're saying "you get a smooth, quiet ride that doesn't leave you tired at the end of the day's driving", but honestly, just buy a nicer car. What are we comparing, a $75000 Tesla and a $15000 Kia? There are so many wonderfully comfortable ICE cruisers out there, test drive an Acura TLX, quiet and comfortable, same price as a Tesla 3 with double the range. I feel like we are in the early days where people really try to downplay and apologize for the charging issues on electric cars, but it's not the way it has to be. Musk showed that very amazing 'drive up battery replacement' thing awhile back, and then it just died. How awesome would it have been if that became reality, rather than just plunking down superchargers every couple hundred miles? Sorry I don't mean to rant, it's just incredibly awkward trying to point things out when Tesla owners/fanboys are so excited and dismissive of anybody who prefers to drive with an ICE.

aerovistae 11y ago

As if to suggest people wouldn't be willing to wait a year to get the 3 instead of the Bolt. Do you really think these two products have equivalent level of appeal? I'm sorry, I may be missing something re: specs, but can you point to where it says that the Bolt will go 0-60 in <6s? Also, does the Bolt have a nationwide supercharging network? Does it have autopilot? Does it have an astounding, unparalleled safety rating?

mdorazio 11y ago
Sure. Planned 0-60 in under 7 seconds for the Bolt [1] with similar fast charging capability at suitable chargers. If we're going to split hairs over being a second faster off the line when it's already not even as fast as significantly cheaper cars, then I'm not sure what to say. The lack of a supercharger network is definitely a downside for Chevy, but for your average commuter that shouldn't be a major issue. Please also keep in mind that autopilot is not free for the Model 3 (or Model S) - it's a $3,000 upgrade. Is the Bolt actually a better car? No, but I think it's evidence that if automakers actually get serious about electric they can put together something competitive and bring it to market far faster than Tesla. [1] http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/news/a27858/chevy-bolt-0-60-charging-time/ http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/news...
- mikeash 11y ago
  I think the lack of a supercharger network is going to be huge. Yes, for your average commuter it shouldn't be a major issue, but it will be just the same. How to take road trips is the number one question/concern people have when I show them my Model S. There are many arguments to make about how it shouldn't matter, because long road trips are rare, you can take a different car, or rent a car, etc. But people just don't care. They don't want to spend a bunch of money or a car they can't drive to Grandma's house for Christmas, never mind that this is only an issue once a year and can be worked around. Tiny nitpick: autopilot for the S and X (we'll see for the 3) is a $2,500 upgrade if you order it with the car. It's $3,000 if you activate it later. Incidentally, $2,500 is about how much more expensive the Bolt is than the Model 3.

bluthru 11y ago

I'd definitely wait a year to not drive a car that ugly.

Shengbo 11y ago

It's just my opinion, but I think the Chevy looks awful compared to the Model 3.

illumin8 11y ago

Correction: the bolt only seats 4 adults. Specs aren't everything - you can bet the Chevy will have cheap plastic parts, and resale value will be atrocious due to poor build quality. From what I've seen, Tesla vehicles have better resale value than almost any other car.

ryanhuff 11y ago

The $7,500 is in effect for the first 200,000 sold by the manufacturer. I don't think many of the people who preordered will have their car in time to take advantage of the tax credit.