4 ms·

Can the government compel you to lie? (I don't know). If they can't, then the canary is a legal defense, unless of course the gov't prohibits those of us who ha

Can the government compel you to lie? (I don't know). If they can't, then the canary is a legal defense, unless of course the gov't prohibits those of us who haven't got an NSL from confirming that we haven't got one. But even that could not be retroactive.

rtpg 11y ago
It's not about compelling you to lie. Nobody compelled you to start the canary in the first place. The gov't gives you a gag order, and a priori gag orders are constitutional, so... you're going to have a hard time finding a judge who will accept the "Oh I was going to follow the gag order but my duty to my redditors to not write my haiku was so big!" argument. The government has no responsibility to assist you in self-perpetuating logic puzzles.
- bees22 11y ago
  To say "you weren't compelled to lie about X because you weren't compelled to say X in the first place" is unreasonable. It involves two actions taken by parties with opposing intentions. The latter party is exclusively responsible for the consequence of the latter action. A similar line of logic would be "you weren't compelled to give me your wallet because you weren't compelled to carry one in the first place". That being as it is, the distinction is between compelling someone to nondisclosure and compelling someone to active deception. I imagine that's a tough battle in court, particularly if it's part of a service agreement between a company and its customers. Compelling continued publication of the canary would extend well beyond 'gagging' the company and would force it to commit what is essentially contract fraud.
- FeepingCreature 11y ago
  No, but at the point where you set up the canary, you aren't violating a gag order. You can't violate a gag order that doesn't exist yet. And by the point where the gag order comes into force, it's too late; you can't comply with it in a way where you aren't compelled to lie, a power that the gag order does not possess. That's the point of the canary; you have preemptively removed from yourself the ability to fully comply. Which is entirely legal. Gag orders aren't retrocausal. Either it's fundamentally illegal to say that you haven't received a gag order, or gag orders can force you to lie, or canaries work. One of those three options must hold.

rtpg 11y ago

It's not about compelling you to lie. Nobody compelled you to start the canary in the first place. The gov't gives you a gag order, and a priori gag orders are constitutional, so... you're going to have a hard time finding a judge who will accept the "Oh I was going to follow the gag order but my duty to my redditors to not write my haiku was so big!" argument. The government has no responsibility to assist you in self-perpetuating logic puzzles.

bees22 11y ago
To say "you weren't compelled to lie about X because you weren't compelled to say X in the first place" is unreasonable. It involves two actions taken by parties with opposing intentions. The latter party is exclusively responsible for the consequence of the latter action. A similar line of logic would be "you weren't compelled to give me your wallet because you weren't compelled to carry one in the first place". That being as it is, the distinction is between compelling someone to nondisclosure and compelling someone to active deception. I imagine that's a tough battle in court, particularly if it's part of a service agreement between a company and its customers. Compelling continued publication of the canary would extend well beyond 'gagging' the company and would force it to commit what is essentially contract fraud.
FeepingCreature 11y ago
No, but at the point where you set up the canary, you aren't violating a gag order. You can't violate a gag order that doesn't exist yet. And by the point where the gag order comes into force, it's too late; you can't comply with it in a way where you aren't compelled to lie, a power that the gag order does not possess. That's the point of the canary; you have preemptively removed from yourself the ability to fully comply. Which is entirely legal. Gag orders aren't retrocausal. Either it's fundamentally illegal to say that you haven't received a gag order, or gag orders can force you to lie, or canaries work. One of those three options must hold.