6 ms·

Very clean looks also: 215 Miles Range with 0-60 in 6secs, Seats 5 will have autodrive tech all for $35,000 Deliveries begin end of 2017 (Hopefully) This

Very clean looks also: 215 Miles Range with 0-60 in 6secs, Seats 5 will have autodrive tech all for $35,000 Deliveries begin end of 2017 (Hopefully) This is truly a mass market full electric car. We may be seeing something on the lines of the iPhone - a category busting product.

dgritsko 11y ago
Pretty solid specs for the base model. I'm very interested to see how much those numbers go up (or down, in the case of 0-60) as the options are revealed.
- kerryfalk 11y ago
  The P85D is a massive step from a base Model S in terms of performance. It has super car levels of performance. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Model 3 with something like a P65D besting M3/C63 performance numbers.
rsync 11y ago
"with 0-60 in 6secs" This part confuses me. The very fast 0-60 times that you see in electric cars are a function not of their massive engines or super tuned turbos, but of their instantaneous torque (as they are electric). Given that this is an electric car, and that its size and weight are commensurable to the (presumably) smaller electric motor, I would expect it to have similar 0-60 times. I just assumed that whenever this car was released it would have <4 second times ... why wouldn't it ?
- mikeash 11y ago
  Because you can make more money by charging extra for performance. For an extreme example, the Model S P90D has a $10,000 Ludicrous Mode option which just flips a software switch.
  - schwarrrtz 11y ago
    No, that upgrade involves replacing the main pack contactor and fuse so they can handle the higher current draw.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Ludicrous requires a new contactor and fuse, yes. But what they didn't say and few people know (including, I assume, all the people who downvoted my original comment) is that all P90Ds have this hardware. There is at least one P90D test drive car which has been upgraded to Ludicrous in software by its service center, so it definitely doesn't require any hardware beyond what a P90D already has.
      - schwarrrtz 11y ago
        That's very interesting. I found a relevant thread on TMC[0] which seems to show that the two packs have the same part number. However, it didn't have a direct report of a software upgrade in a service center. Do you have a source? [0] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90d-insane-p90d-ludicrous-traction-battery-stickers-reveal-questions.52938/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90d-insane-p90d-lud...
        mikeash 11y ago
        It was on TMC somewhere. I couldn't locate the original message about the test drive car, although there are some mentions of that message. I did dig this up: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/l-or-no-l.63631/page-2#post-1398749 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/l-or-no-l.63631/page... That's a report of a P90D owner in the UAE who got theirs upgraded to Ludicrous using just a laptop and an underline for the badge on the car. According to that, early P90Ds weren't this way, but newer ones are. It is definitely weird. You'd think this hardware costs a lot of money. Maybe inconel contactors and pyrotechnic fuses are cheaper than I think.
        schwarrrtz 11y ago
- serpix 11y ago
  it is most likely limited. Just like the the Chevrolet Volt can do ~5 sec when the firmware is altered.
- j1vms 11y ago
  Which brings up the question of whether it's not already time existing cars (starting at the performance end, and then trickling down to consumer market), should not already be replacing: (Int. Combustion Engine)---[variable rotational speed/torque]--->drivetrain with: ICE---[constant rot. speed & constant torque]-->dynamo--->battery-->fully electric motor(s) drive train. That would give most of the performance benefits/efficiency of electric motors, with the range of ICE-based vehicles. Since operating at essentially constant torque / speed, the ICE could then itself be made more compact and simplified to reduce the vehicle's weight. I'm sure the above is already being done or worked on, and maybe someone could point to examples of it.
  - dangrossman 11y ago
    > maybe someone could point to examples of it Chevrolet Volt, BMW i3 with Range Extender
    - briffle 11y ago
      As well as any train locomotive built in the last 40 years or so....
  - erikpukinskis 11y ago
    I think the Koenigsegg Regera is a really interesting model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjWzoJdmPeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjWzoJdmPeM It uses the battery to get going, and then gradually revvs up the ICE engine, which only has a single speed, as you go faster. You get the growl and power of an engine in its sweet spot with the instant torque of an electric and a dramatically simpler drivetrain, less weight, etc. Supposedly it's amazing to drive, if you have a million dollars.
  - TorKlingberg 11y ago
    This is how most diesel trains work.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dskhatri 11y ago
  I read an article in the WSJ saying the Model 3 will be steel based instead of Al based like its bigger siblings. Heavier vehicle.. * Article title is "A Lot Riding on Tesla's Model 3 Unveiling"
  - jonquark 11y ago
    It's a mix of steel and aluminium (source: Tesla employee in their Periscope Test Drive: https://www.periscope.tv/TeslaMotors/1dRKZyRkpgNxB https://www.periscope.tv/TeslaMotors/1dRKZyRkpgNxB )
- spurgu 11y ago
  > I just assumed that whenever this car was released it would have <4 second times ... why wouldn't it ? I believe it's simply so that they can get people to pay for upgrades. I don't think there's much of a difference in motor cost/size/weight so they _could_ have a larger motor in the base model, but then you'd need other incentives for people to buy a more expensive package.
- illumin8 11y ago
  The $35,000 model will go 0-60 in less than 6 seconds, which is pretty respectable. They will definitely sell models that are faster, but to balance range and battery life with performance requires that you don't put ludicrous mode in the model with a 215 mile range battery pack. Customers would complain if they only got <100 miles range because they were doing burnouts at every stop light.
- arprocter 11y ago
  I wonder if this is to prevent it from stealing sales from the higher priced models - would as many BMW M3s get sold if the base 3 series was as quick?
- schiffern 11y ago
  You're trying to compare the cheapest Model 3 with the most expensive Model S, which explains the discrepancy. Only the P85D/P90D get from 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, and I'm sure the top end Model 3 will be similar. >Given that this is an electric car, and that its size and weight are commensurable to the (presumably) smaller electric motor, I would expect it to have similar 0-60 times. And so it does! The fastest RWD Model S has a 0-60 of 5.4 seconds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Specifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Specifications To get sub-4 seconds you need to add a second motor (and larger motors for the "P" versions), which Tesla made optional to keep the base price down. Also peak battery power limits the 0-60. Again to keep the base price down the cheapest Model 3 has a smaller battery than the S, which tends to reduce peak power and therefore acceleration. That explains the performance drop from 5.4s to <6s.
- pkulak 11y ago
  > The very fast 0-60 times that you see in electric cars are a function not of their massive engines or super tuned turbos, but of their instantaneous torque (as they are electric). No, not quite. 0-60 times in an electric car are determined by power. You're right that motors don't have to change too much to be more powerful, but _delivering_ that much power becomes difficult. First off, batteries can only deliver so much power, in proportion to their size. So, a 90kWh battery will be able to deliver more power than a 60kWh one. Then you have to change the DC power of the battery to AC for the motor: the more you want to handle the more inverter you need and the more costs rise. And all the ancillary things around the drivetrain need to scale up: cooling, copper wire gauge, etc. It's easier to go fast in an EV, but you still don't get it for free. I'd actually prefer an 8-second 0-60 if they could put that money somewhere else. That's plenty fast for me.

dgritsko 11y ago

Pretty solid specs for the base model. I'm very interested to see how much those numbers go up (or down, in the case of 0-60) as the options are revealed.

kerryfalk 11y ago
The P85D is a massive step from a base Model S in terms of performance. It has super car levels of performance. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Model 3 with something like a P65D besting M3/C63 performance numbers.

rsync 11y ago

"with 0-60 in 6secs" This part confuses me. The very fast 0-60 times that you see in electric cars are a function not of their massive engines or super tuned turbos, but of their instantaneous torque (as they are electric). Given that this is an electric car, and that its size and weight are commensurable to the (presumably) smaller electric motor, I would expect it to have similar 0-60 times. I just assumed that whenever this car was released it would have <4 second times ... why wouldn't it ?

mikeash 11y ago
Because you can make more money by charging extra for performance. For an extreme example, the Model S P90D has a $10,000 Ludicrous Mode option which just flips a software switch.
- schwarrrtz 11y ago
  No, that upgrade involves replacing the main pack contactor and fuse so they can handle the higher current draw.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Ludicrous requires a new contactor and fuse, yes. But what they didn't say and few people know (including, I assume, all the people who downvoted my original comment) is that all P90Ds have this hardware. There is at least one P90D test drive car which has been upgraded to Ludicrous in software by its service center, so it definitely doesn't require any hardware beyond what a P90D already has.
    - schwarrrtz 11y ago
      That's very interesting. I found a relevant thread on TMC[0] which seems to show that the two packs have the same part number. However, it didn't have a direct report of a software upgrade in a service center. Do you have a source? [0] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90d-insane-p90d-ludicrous-traction-battery-stickers-reveal-questions.52938/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90d-insane-p90d-lud...
      - mikeash 11y ago
        It was on TMC somewhere. I couldn't locate the original message about the test drive car, although there are some mentions of that message. I did dig this up: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/l-or-no-l.63631/page-2#post-1398749 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/l-or-no-l.63631/page... That's a report of a P90D owner in the UAE who got theirs upgraded to Ludicrous using just a laptop and an underline for the badge on the car. According to that, early P90Ds weren't this way, but newer ones are. It is definitely weird. You'd think this hardware costs a lot of money. Maybe inconel contactors and pyrotechnic fuses are cheaper than I think.
        schwarrrtz 11y ago
serpix 11y ago
it is most likely limited. Just like the the Chevrolet Volt can do ~5 sec when the firmware is altered.
j1vms 11y ago
Which brings up the question of whether it's not already time existing cars (starting at the performance end, and then trickling down to consumer market), should not already be replacing: (Int. Combustion Engine)---[variable rotational speed/torque]--->drivetrain with: ICE---[constant rot. speed & constant torque]-->dynamo--->battery-->fully electric motor(s) drive train. That would give most of the performance benefits/efficiency of electric motors, with the range of ICE-based vehicles. Since operating at essentially constant torque / speed, the ICE could then itself be made more compact and simplified to reduce the vehicle's weight. I'm sure the above is already being done or worked on, and maybe someone could point to examples of it.
- dangrossman 11y ago
  > maybe someone could point to examples of it Chevrolet Volt, BMW i3 with Range Extender
  - briffle 11y ago
    As well as any train locomotive built in the last 40 years or so....
- erikpukinskis 11y ago
  I think the Koenigsegg Regera is a really interesting model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjWzoJdmPeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjWzoJdmPeM It uses the battery to get going, and then gradually revvs up the ICE engine, which only has a single speed, as you go faster. You get the growl and power of an engine in its sweet spot with the instant torque of an electric and a dramatically simpler drivetrain, less weight, etc. Supposedly it's amazing to drive, if you have a million dollars.
- TorKlingberg 11y ago
  This is how most diesel trains work.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
dskhatri 11y ago
I read an article in the WSJ saying the Model 3 will be steel based instead of Al based like its bigger siblings. Heavier vehicle.. * Article title is "A Lot Riding on Tesla's Model 3 Unveiling"
- jonquark 11y ago
  It's a mix of steel and aluminium (source: Tesla employee in their Periscope Test Drive: https://www.periscope.tv/TeslaMotors/1dRKZyRkpgNxB https://www.periscope.tv/TeslaMotors/1dRKZyRkpgNxB )
spurgu 11y ago
> I just assumed that whenever this car was released it would have <4 second times ... why wouldn't it ? I believe it's simply so that they can get people to pay for upgrades. I don't think there's much of a difference in motor cost/size/weight so they _could_ have a larger motor in the base model, but then you'd need other incentives for people to buy a more expensive package.
illumin8 11y ago
The $35,000 model will go 0-60 in less than 6 seconds, which is pretty respectable. They will definitely sell models that are faster, but to balance range and battery life with performance requires that you don't put ludicrous mode in the model with a 215 mile range battery pack. Customers would complain if they only got <100 miles range because they were doing burnouts at every stop light.
arprocter 11y ago
I wonder if this is to prevent it from stealing sales from the higher priced models - would as many BMW M3s get sold if the base 3 series was as quick?
schiffern 11y ago
You're trying to compare the cheapest Model 3 with the most expensive Model S, which explains the discrepancy. Only the P85D/P90D get from 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, and I'm sure the top end Model 3 will be similar. >Given that this is an electric car, and that its size and weight are commensurable to the (presumably) smaller electric motor, I would expect it to have similar 0-60 times. And so it does! The fastest RWD Model S has a 0-60 of 5.4 seconds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Specifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Specifications To get sub-4 seconds you need to add a second motor (and larger motors for the "P" versions), which Tesla made optional to keep the base price down. Also peak battery power limits the 0-60. Again to keep the base price down the cheapest Model 3 has a smaller battery than the S, which tends to reduce peak power and therefore acceleration. That explains the performance drop from 5.4s to <6s.
pkulak 11y ago
> The very fast 0-60 times that you see in electric cars are a function not of their massive engines or super tuned turbos, but of their instantaneous torque (as they are electric). No, not quite. 0-60 times in an electric car are determined by power. You're right that motors don't have to change too much to be more powerful, but _delivering_ that much power becomes difficult. First off, batteries can only deliver so much power, in proportion to their size. So, a 90kWh battery will be able to deliver more power than a 60kWh one. Then you have to change the DC power of the battery to AC for the motor: the more you want to handle the more inverter you need and the more costs rise. And all the ancillary things around the drivetrain need to scale up: cooling, copper wire gauge, etc. It's easier to go fast in an EV, but you still don't get it for free. I'd actually prefer an 8-second 0-60 if they could put that money somewhere else. That's plenty fast for me.