5 ms·

I'll make this even simpler, no VICTIM, no CRIME. Unless you can produce a victim no crime has been committed. Follow this simple rule and most of this illegal

by X86BSD 11y ago

I'll make this even simpler, no VICTIM, no CRIME. Unless you can produce a victim no crime has been committed. Follow this simple rule and most of this illegal, immoral tyrannical shit stops.

pdabbadabba 11y ago
So, for example, DUI should be legal unless someone gets hurt? What about tax evasion? Can the government itself be counted as a victim? If so, then I think this exception might well swallow your rule...
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  "The People" (as represented by the government) would be a victim in a tax evasion case; they're harmed because tax revenues that would be put toward civic services were not paid.
  - X86BSD 11y ago
    As noted taxation is theft. Doubly so if it's not a voluntary contract. For instance, sales tax is voluntary. I choose wether or not to make a purchase. I decide if I want to pay that tax. Income tax, is not. It's pure theft. We never had one for the first 100 years. "The people" are a group. Groups do not have rights. Individuals have rights. There is no such thing as group rights. That's why we have a lot of the problems we have because we keep putting people into groups.
    - pdabbadabba 11y ago
      It seems to me that theft is the unlawful, involuntary taking of property. Just like how murder is not just killing, but an unlawful killing. So, while you might think that taxation is the moral equivalent of theft, I'm not sure it makes sense to say that they are literally the same thing. And it certainly adds nothing useful to a discussion with people who, as you surely are aware, have heard this tired phrase many times before and have good reason for disagreeing with it. What do you make of these examples? Let's say that I run over your leg with my car, and you successfully sue me for damages. I have no liquid assets with which to pay your judgment. Therefore, you obtain a lien against my boat, seize it, and sell the boat to help satisfy the judgment. Is this theft? Should this be legal? Or what about confiscations of property for reasons other than taxation or the satisfaction of judgments? For example, it seems to me it would be a sensible policy to confiscate automatic firearms from people who have been convicted of multiple violent felonies. Would that be theft? Or what if the state can prove, at trial, that your private jet was purchased with the proceeds of a protection racket. Can it be seized and sold to compensate your victims, or would that be theft? I should add that I also don't see how your distinction between sales tax and income tax makes any sense. The sale and the income are both voluntary--the tax is not. If your point is that the underlying behavior is voluntary, I'm not sure how that distinguishes the cases. Earning an income is no less voluntary than making a purchase (though surely some purchases are more voluntary than others -- just like income). How about if we made it a condition on any purchase that you agreed to pay an income tax? Would that resolve your concern? I'm guessing it wouldn't, though I'm not sure I can see why, except that you like sales taxes for some reason but don't like income taxes.
- the_ancient 11y ago
  >>DUI should be legal unless someone gets hurt? yes.. Scrapping the DWI offense in favor of better enforcement of reckless driving laws would also bring some logical consistency to our laws, which treat a driver with a BAC of 0.08 much more harshly than, say, a driver distracted by his kids or a cell phone call, despite similar levels of impairment. The punishable act should be violating road rules or causing an accident, not the factors that led to those offenses. Singling out alcohol impairment for extra punishment isn't about making the roads safer. It's about a lingering hostility toward demon rum. http://reason.com/archives/2010/10/11/abolish-drunk-driving-laws http://reason.com/archives/2010/10/11/abolish-drunk-driving-... >>Can the government itself be counted as a victim? No >>What about tax evasion? Taxation is theft
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > which treat a driver with a BAC of 0.08 much more harshly than, say, a driver distracted by his kids or a cell phone call, despite similar levels of impairment. One is impairment by situation (kids, or some other occurrence) which you can't conceivably protect against all instances of prior to driving. That is, it's caused by outside forces. The other is willful disregard for the law and the safety of others by initiating the situation when you know it's against the law. > Singling out alcohol impairment for extra punishment isn't about making the roads safer. It's a disincentive because it's seen as both more problematic and disruptive. > Taxation is theft No, it's legal. Your soundbite has no place in a serious discussion. Feel free to say it's equitable to theft, or you see it as no different, but we both know it is not actual theft, and all you are doing is avoiding the question, which could have been done just as easily by leaving it out.
    - the_ancient 11y ago
      >No, it's legal. Your soundbite has no place in a serious discussion. Feel free to say it's equitable to theft, or you see it as no different, but we both know it is not actual theft, and all you are doing is avoiding the question, which could have been done just as easily by leaving it out. Theft is the Involuntary Taking of a persons property, Taxation is most certainly theft The fact that is is approved by government, or legal, does not transform it into something else.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  Guys. You see that these are just two examples of "victimless" crimes, right? There are a lot more, especially if the government doesn't count as a victim. What about receipt of stolen property? Treason? Espionage? Bribery? Failure to pay a bunch of parking tickets? Trespassing on government land?

by X86BSD 11y ago

I'll make this even simpler, no VICTIM, no CRIME. Unless you can produce a victim no crime has been committed. Follow this simple rule and most of this illegal, immoral tyrannical shit stops.

pdabbadabba 11y ago

So, for example, DUI should be legal unless someone gets hurt? What about tax evasion? Can the government itself be counted as a victim? If so, then I think this exception might well swallow your rule...

ascagnel_ 11y ago
"The People" (as represented by the government) would be a victim in a tax evasion case; they're harmed because tax revenues that would be put toward civic services were not paid.
- X86BSD 11y ago
  As noted taxation is theft. Doubly so if it's not a voluntary contract. For instance, sales tax is voluntary. I choose wether or not to make a purchase. I decide if I want to pay that tax. Income tax, is not. It's pure theft. We never had one for the first 100 years. "The people" are a group. Groups do not have rights. Individuals have rights. There is no such thing as group rights. That's why we have a lot of the problems we have because we keep putting people into groups.
  - pdabbadabba 11y ago
    It seems to me that theft is the unlawful, involuntary taking of property. Just like how murder is not just killing, but an unlawful killing. So, while you might think that taxation is the moral equivalent of theft, I'm not sure it makes sense to say that they are literally the same thing. And it certainly adds nothing useful to a discussion with people who, as you surely are aware, have heard this tired phrase many times before and have good reason for disagreeing with it. What do you make of these examples? Let's say that I run over your leg with my car, and you successfully sue me for damages. I have no liquid assets with which to pay your judgment. Therefore, you obtain a lien against my boat, seize it, and sell the boat to help satisfy the judgment. Is this theft? Should this be legal? Or what about confiscations of property for reasons other than taxation or the satisfaction of judgments? For example, it seems to me it would be a sensible policy to confiscate automatic firearms from people who have been convicted of multiple violent felonies. Would that be theft? Or what if the state can prove, at trial, that your private jet was purchased with the proceeds of a protection racket. Can it be seized and sold to compensate your victims, or would that be theft? I should add that I also don't see how your distinction between sales tax and income tax makes any sense. The sale and the income are both voluntary--the tax is not. If your point is that the underlying behavior is voluntary, I'm not sure how that distinguishes the cases. Earning an income is no less voluntary than making a purchase (though surely some purchases are more voluntary than others -- just like income). How about if we made it a condition on any purchase that you agreed to pay an income tax? Would that resolve your concern? I'm guessing it wouldn't, though I'm not sure I can see why, except that you like sales taxes for some reason but don't like income taxes.
the_ancient 11y ago
>>DUI should be legal unless someone gets hurt? yes.. Scrapping the DWI offense in favor of better enforcement of reckless driving laws would also bring some logical consistency to our laws, which treat a driver with a BAC of 0.08 much more harshly than, say, a driver distracted by his kids or a cell phone call, despite similar levels of impairment. The punishable act should be violating road rules or causing an accident, not the factors that led to those offenses. Singling out alcohol impairment for extra punishment isn't about making the roads safer. It's about a lingering hostility toward demon rum. http://reason.com/archives/2010/10/11/abolish-drunk-driving-laws http://reason.com/archives/2010/10/11/abolish-drunk-driving-... >>Can the government itself be counted as a victim? No >>What about tax evasion? Taxation is theft
- kbenson 11y ago
  > which treat a driver with a BAC of 0.08 much more harshly than, say, a driver distracted by his kids or a cell phone call, despite similar levels of impairment. One is impairment by situation (kids, or some other occurrence) which you can't conceivably protect against all instances of prior to driving. That is, it's caused by outside forces. The other is willful disregard for the law and the safety of others by initiating the situation when you know it's against the law. > Singling out alcohol impairment for extra punishment isn't about making the roads safer. It's a disincentive because it's seen as both more problematic and disruptive. > Taxation is theft No, it's legal. Your soundbite has no place in a serious discussion. Feel free to say it's equitable to theft, or you see it as no different, but we both know it is not actual theft, and all you are doing is avoiding the question, which could have been done just as easily by leaving it out.
  - the_ancient 11y ago
    >No, it's legal. Your soundbite has no place in a serious discussion. Feel free to say it's equitable to theft, or you see it as no different, but we both know it is not actual theft, and all you are doing is avoiding the question, which could have been done just as easily by leaving it out. Theft is the Involuntary Taking of a persons property, Taxation is most certainly theft The fact that is is approved by government, or legal, does not transform it into something else.
pdabbadabba 11y ago
Guys. You see that these are just two examples of "victimless" crimes, right? There are a lot more, especially if the government doesn't count as a victim. What about receipt of stolen property? Treason? Espionage? Bribery? Failure to pay a bunch of parking tickets? Trespassing on government land?