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> My response to that is why? And if you can't cite a reason that doesn't involve such abstract concepts as maturity (highly relative, not measurable) I used t

> My response to that is why? And if you can't cite a reason that doesn't involve such abstract concepts as maturity (highly relative, not measurable) I used to think this way until one day I realized that there are many very important things that are unquantifiable and abstract, yet still matter very much. I used to think coming on time to work was arbitrarily set by my boss...but over the years I discovered that there are numerous good, but abstract and unquantifiable reasons for this. The idea that, as an employee, you have to be able to understand a rule in order to not resent following it, is a flawed attitude, and a reflection of a deeper problem with authority or need for control. Would the reason, "I need you here early to see if you can follow instructions from your boss without understanding them." be a goood enough reason for you? For what it's worth, I found a way to control my own schedule for the most part and I work better in this environment...but I have come to appreciate that there are elements at play beyond our immediate understanding, especially when working with others...and whether i understand it or not, I should respect it's value or at least the role I play within that hierarchy and framework.

FussyZeus 11y ago
The attitude of our CEO and thusly the leadership in our company is that every minute a given manager is spending on disciplining employees for things as trivial as arriving late is not adding value to the company, it just makes the employee miserable. Now granted, if a given employee is knocking off work 15 minutes early and coming in 15 minutes late then that's something to discuss, but we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability. If you need to leave an hour early one day, do it. Take care of what needs doing, then VPN from home that night or stay late at the office the next day. We trust each other to do our jobs and hold each other to the fire if we aren't. As a result the whole company has a very flat organization chart. My boss doesn't give me instructions I don't understand, nor does he require me to obey them from anyone else. This makes us much leaner as an organization and more focused on what actually adds value, not on the minutiae so popular with middle management at other places I've worked. Doesn't work for everyone, YMMV, etc.
- davemel37 11y ago
  > we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability > YMMV Exactly. If your culture and environment is built on that framework, than it would inconsistent to be a stickler for time, etc... However, there are many organizations where this is not the case. An accounting firm or law firm might need people in their seats early in the day in case a client comes by, so they see what they are getting for their money. A commercial real estate management company might need people wearing suits and ties to impress and demand better terms and higher lease rates from their tenants, etc... There is an amazing book called, "Broken Windows, Broken Business" about how cleaning up grafitti in NY Subways led to a huge drop in crime. When people see you care about something as trivial as coming late...they will be damn sure not to screw up something important or be late with a client, etc... People need to be aware of how their behavior influences others and in my experience, employees rarely see beyond themselves when it comes to minutia they dont understand.
atemerev 11y ago
The only place where following instructions without understanding them is a prerequisite and concerned to be a good thing is a slave labor camp. Or being on lowest positions in the military. Resenting arbitrary unexplained authority is a healthy natural response.
- davemel37 11y ago
  Just to add to this... Have you ever walked into a restaurant, went to the restroom and it was dirty and wondered what else they dont clean up? Employees in companies need to appreciate that order can impact many other aspects of the business and ability to keep clients happy, etc... and small broken things can have profound negative ripple effects.
  - atemerev 11y ago
    Order and processes are obviously important. But those have very logical explanation. I am not against order; I just said that rejecting _arbitrary_ authority is good and healthy.
- davemel37 11y ago
  Like I said, I used to think this way until I realized there are things simply beyond my limited frame of reference that I am not prepared to understand yet. I completely disagree with your point about slave labor. If I have been in an industry for a decade and want things done a certain way because of my much deeper understanding, which a newer employee won't appreciate, I don't need to quantify why to my employees and it's very unhealthy for them to presume that they are even capable of understanding everything at play without the prerequisite experience. I am not talking about an arbitrary middle manager getting hung up on minutia for his own ego powertrip. I am talking about how being in the office on time, how you dress and behave has deep influence on others and the team, culture, ambiance and work environment with profound impacts a single employee can't see, and is perfectly reasonable for a boss to want to control. This idea that following instructions without understanding them not being a prerequisite of an employee is really unhealthy attitude if you want to work for someone else. I suggest starting your own business and not raising outside money, otherwise you will be a miserable slave in a perfectly functional work environment.

FussyZeus 11y ago

The attitude of our CEO and thusly the leadership in our company is that every minute a given manager is spending on disciplining employees for things as trivial as arriving late is not adding value to the company, it just makes the employee miserable. Now granted, if a given employee is knocking off work 15 minutes early and coming in 15 minutes late then that's something to discuss, but we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability. If you need to leave an hour early one day, do it. Take care of what needs doing, then VPN from home that night or stay late at the office the next day. We trust each other to do our jobs and hold each other to the fire if we aren't. As a result the whole company has a very flat organization chart. My boss doesn't give me instructions I don't understand, nor does he require me to obey them from anyone else. This makes us much leaner as an organization and more focused on what actually adds value, not on the minutiae so popular with middle management at other places I've worked. Doesn't work for everyone, YMMV, etc.

davemel37 11y ago
> we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability > YMMV Exactly. If your culture and environment is built on that framework, than it would inconsistent to be a stickler for time, etc... However, there are many organizations where this is not the case. An accounting firm or law firm might need people in their seats early in the day in case a client comes by, so they see what they are getting for their money. A commercial real estate management company might need people wearing suits and ties to impress and demand better terms and higher lease rates from their tenants, etc... There is an amazing book called, "Broken Windows, Broken Business" about how cleaning up grafitti in NY Subways led to a huge drop in crime. When people see you care about something as trivial as coming late...they will be damn sure not to screw up something important or be late with a client, etc... People need to be aware of how their behavior influences others and in my experience, employees rarely see beyond themselves when it comes to minutia they dont understand.

atemerev 11y ago

The only place where following instructions without understanding them is a prerequisite and concerned to be a good thing is a slave labor camp. Or being on lowest positions in the military. Resenting arbitrary unexplained authority is a healthy natural response.

davemel37 11y ago
Just to add to this... Have you ever walked into a restaurant, went to the restroom and it was dirty and wondered what else they dont clean up? Employees in companies need to appreciate that order can impact many other aspects of the business and ability to keep clients happy, etc... and small broken things can have profound negative ripple effects.
- atemerev 11y ago
  Order and processes are obviously important. But those have very logical explanation. I am not against order; I just said that rejecting _arbitrary_ authority is good and healthy.
davemel37 11y ago
Like I said, I used to think this way until I realized there are things simply beyond my limited frame of reference that I am not prepared to understand yet. I completely disagree with your point about slave labor. If I have been in an industry for a decade and want things done a certain way because of my much deeper understanding, which a newer employee won't appreciate, I don't need to quantify why to my employees and it's very unhealthy for them to presume that they are even capable of understanding everything at play without the prerequisite experience. I am not talking about an arbitrary middle manager getting hung up on minutia for his own ego powertrip. I am talking about how being in the office on time, how you dress and behave has deep influence on others and the team, culture, ambiance and work environment with profound impacts a single employee can't see, and is perfectly reasonable for a boss to want to control. This idea that following instructions without understanding them not being a prerequisite of an employee is really unhealthy attitude if you want to work for someone else. I suggest starting your own business and not raising outside money, otherwise you will be a miserable slave in a perfectly functional work environment.