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:( I was really hoping I would be able to develop on Linux. Visual Studio is nice (my favorite IDE actually), but I'm willing to put up with lesser IDEs if it

:( I was really hoping I would be able to develop on Linux. Visual Studio is nice (my favorite IDE actually), but I'm willing to put up with lesser IDEs if it means I don't have to use Windows.

snuxoll 11y ago
Last I checked you were able to install the Xamarin plugins into MonoDevelop, maybe I'm wrong.
claydiffrient 11y ago
But now you can Ubuntu inside of Windows... Natively!
rubber_duck 11y ago
>but I'm willing to put up with lesser IDEs if it means I don't have to use Windows. Check out the recent news - Microsoft is making Windows a lot more attractive to developers even those with Linux background. I spent the last ~12 months doing C++ with Clang on Linux and porting that to windows was a lot less painful than I though it would be, even Visual C++ required maybe a day of work to get working - the biggest issue being Nuget and their Angle Packages are only available for sandboxed Windows apps - it took two hours to configure projects and fix stuff that made VC++ choke. This was a template using C++14 project btw. so I'm impressed. And they now support using Clang as a front-end to VS code generator backend - no MinGW or Cygwin. Sadly the compiler crashed when I tried that and I still haven't gotten around to sending them the bug with repro - need to try with Update 2 first. And on top of all this they just announced they will implement linux kernel interfaces in windows and add support for running ELF binaries - and they will port apt-get with cannonical - basically you can get Ubuntu packages to run natively on windows kernel - without recompiling or nothing. Huge props to Microsoft !
- mixedCase 11y ago
  Tacking on some of the good stuff from Linux doesn't make Windows any less of a horrible option for many, if not most, of us. I am impressed by what Microsoft is doing, and I'm willing to use Azure and other MS tech at some point, but only if I can get away with not having to deal with Windows for anything but a small build slave server for Windows Phone and Windows builds, just like I currently do with a Mac Mini.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >Tacking on some of the good stuff from Linux doesn't make Windows any less of a horrible option for many, if not most, of us. Actually that's exactly what it does. What were your pain points? (Besides "it's proprietary").
    - dohboy 11y ago
      Why is this being discussed like Ubuntu is the only Linux edition available? You seriously think CentOS, Arch or *BSD users will jump ship because of this?
      - coldtea 11y ago
        No, but people wanting a stable no-fuss desktop with everything (from laptop sleep to device drivers) working, access to proprietary software and all kinds of 3rd party drivers available, will. I use OS X mostly because of the UNIX underpinnings. I could not care less for Linux of the desktop, despite having used it since 1997 (and having a history with UNIX going back to Sun OS and HP-UX). If Windows gets good enough with its basic unix userland support, and has a decent shell, I'll be very tempted to try it. After all, any actual deployment etc, I do on Linux servers and VMs (vagrant etc) -- no reason to pollute one's base desktop system with development libs and setups.
        cyphar 11y ago
        > No, but people wanting a stable no-fuss desktop with everything (from laptop sleep to device drivers) working, access to proprietary software and all kinds of 3rd party drivers available, will. Have you used a recent Linux distro? They are mainly stable and no fuss, and they don't require you to run proprietary software.
        coldtea 11y ago
        >and they don't require you to run proprietary software. Only I specifically asked the inverse: to be able to run all the proprietary software I want. Besides, that's always the case -- "a recent Linux distro" is always supposed to fix all of these problems, I've been hearing that (and trying in vain) ever since 2000 or so. And I use Linux on the server side just fine (and actually have several desktop Linux installations too, since 1997 and RedHat 5.3 IIRC, just not as my basic everyday work/fun desktop, because they're dreadful still).
- giancarlostoro 11y ago
  If Microsoft develops cross-platform IDE's and office tools I would happily use their software on Linux. Windows is a bit bloated for me, I've reinstalled Windows 10 and 8 a couple of times and upon fresh install it winds up using half of my available RAM, while on Linux running the same amount of software I use less than 1 GB of ram. I don't think I'll ever go back unless they made it less resource hungry. "Windows Lite" would be cool to see if anything.
  - rubber_duck 11y ago
    I don't run a PC with low ram nowdays and I've had the exact opposite problem - about 6 months ago after a random Fedora update I started noticing my system would start swapping after using it for a long time (6+ hours). I tried to diagnose memory usage but every tool I used didn't sum up used memory to the memory used by programs - and it wasn't reserved vs used or whatever - the system was visibly swapping on a machine with 8 GB ram and ~4GB memory used by running processes. I would just restart the machine after 8 hours but I've never had such issues with Windows (at least past XP, Win9x was basically restart after everything).
    - giancarlostoro 11y ago
      I've had issues with my Nvidia graphics card that's about it. Thankfully my laptop has Intel Iris so I just switch to that when it happens.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      I have also found that desktop Linux has stopped being a reasonable solution to "bloat". I don't concern myself too much with bloat, as my machines are all pretty big (8GB laptop, 16GB desktop), but even with 8GB I can occasional get myself into a swapping situation. Firefox (I use the multiprocess developer version) and Thunderbird are memory hogs with an impressive appetite, so if I also start up a large-ish editor (like Atom or VSCode) and Inkscape or a video editor, I can end up with real memory problems. I haven't actually dug in to see where all the memory is going precisely, but my email/web workflow (Firefox+Thunderbird) has been the same for about ten years now, so it's interesting that it continues to bump up against memory limits no matter how much memory I have. But, Windows on the same system has similar memory issues when working on the same tasks; so it is not immune, but I don't think it is notably worse than Linux.
- p_b_r 11y ago
  Aggregation does not necessarily imply improvement. Architecturally, it's quite worse than just putting lipstick on a pig - they're bolting a racehorse on top of their pig. If you look at things just right and ignore the pig, you can pretend you're galloping around on an able horse. but, inevitably, both you and the horse will have to deal with the fact that there's a pig bolted to the undercarriage. Linux doesn't need to be put inside another OS to be any more relevant or useful. I think, if it could talk, Linux would tell Windows: "Sit down - I got this."

:( I was really hoping I would be able to develop on Linux. Visual Studio is nice (my favorite IDE actually), but I'm willing to put up with lesser IDEs if it means I don't have to use Windows.

snuxoll 11y ago

Last I checked you were able to install the Xamarin plugins into MonoDevelop, maybe I'm wrong.

claydiffrient 11y ago

But now you can Ubuntu inside of Windows... Natively!

rubber_duck 11y ago

>but I'm willing to put up with lesser IDEs if it means I don't have to use Windows. Check out the recent news - Microsoft is making Windows a lot more attractive to developers even those with Linux background. I spent the last ~12 months doing C++ with Clang on Linux and porting that to windows was a lot less painful than I though it would be, even Visual C++ required maybe a day of work to get working - the biggest issue being Nuget and their Angle Packages are only available for sandboxed Windows apps - it took two hours to configure projects and fix stuff that made VC++ choke. This was a template using C++14 project btw. so I'm impressed. And they now support using Clang as a front-end to VS code generator backend - no MinGW or Cygwin. Sadly the compiler crashed when I tried that and I still haven't gotten around to sending them the bug with repro - need to try with Update 2 first. And on top of all this they just announced they will implement linux kernel interfaces in windows and add support for running ELF binaries - and they will port apt-get with cannonical - basically you can get Ubuntu packages to run natively on windows kernel - without recompiling or nothing. Huge props to Microsoft !

mixedCase 11y ago
Tacking on some of the good stuff from Linux doesn't make Windows any less of a horrible option for many, if not most, of us. I am impressed by what Microsoft is doing, and I'm willing to use Azure and other MS tech at some point, but only if I can get away with not having to deal with Windows for anything but a small build slave server for Windows Phone and Windows builds, just like I currently do with a Mac Mini.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Tacking on some of the good stuff from Linux doesn't make Windows any less of a horrible option for many, if not most, of us. Actually that's exactly what it does. What were your pain points? (Besides "it's proprietary").
  - dohboy 11y ago
    Why is this being discussed like Ubuntu is the only Linux edition available? You seriously think CentOS, Arch or *BSD users will jump ship because of this?
    - coldtea 11y ago
      No, but people wanting a stable no-fuss desktop with everything (from laptop sleep to device drivers) working, access to proprietary software and all kinds of 3rd party drivers available, will. I use OS X mostly because of the UNIX underpinnings. I could not care less for Linux of the desktop, despite having used it since 1997 (and having a history with UNIX going back to Sun OS and HP-UX). If Windows gets good enough with its basic unix userland support, and has a decent shell, I'll be very tempted to try it. After all, any actual deployment etc, I do on Linux servers and VMs (vagrant etc) -- no reason to pollute one's base desktop system with development libs and setups.
      - cyphar 11y ago
        > No, but people wanting a stable no-fuss desktop with everything (from laptop sleep to device drivers) working, access to proprietary software and all kinds of 3rd party drivers available, will. Have you used a recent Linux distro? They are mainly stable and no fuss, and they don't require you to run proprietary software.
        coldtea 11y ago
        >and they don't require you to run proprietary software. Only I specifically asked the inverse: to be able to run all the proprietary software I want. Besides, that's always the case -- "a recent Linux distro" is always supposed to fix all of these problems, I've been hearing that (and trying in vain) ever since 2000 or so. And I use Linux on the server side just fine (and actually have several desktop Linux installations too, since 1997 and RedHat 5.3 IIRC, just not as my basic everyday work/fun desktop, because they're dreadful still).
giancarlostoro 11y ago
If Microsoft develops cross-platform IDE's and office tools I would happily use their software on Linux. Windows is a bit bloated for me, I've reinstalled Windows 10 and 8 a couple of times and upon fresh install it winds up using half of my available RAM, while on Linux running the same amount of software I use less than 1 GB of ram. I don't think I'll ever go back unless they made it less resource hungry. "Windows Lite" would be cool to see if anything.
- rubber_duck 11y ago
  I don't run a PC with low ram nowdays and I've had the exact opposite problem - about 6 months ago after a random Fedora update I started noticing my system would start swapping after using it for a long time (6+ hours). I tried to diagnose memory usage but every tool I used didn't sum up used memory to the memory used by programs - and it wasn't reserved vs used or whatever - the system was visibly swapping on a machine with 8 GB ram and ~4GB memory used by running processes. I would just restart the machine after 8 hours but I've never had such issues with Windows (at least past XP, Win9x was basically restart after everything).
  - giancarlostoro 11y ago
    I've had issues with my Nvidia graphics card that's about it. Thankfully my laptop has Intel Iris so I just switch to that when it happens.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    I have also found that desktop Linux has stopped being a reasonable solution to "bloat". I don't concern myself too much with bloat, as my machines are all pretty big (8GB laptop, 16GB desktop), but even with 8GB I can occasional get myself into a swapping situation. Firefox (I use the multiprocess developer version) and Thunderbird are memory hogs with an impressive appetite, so if I also start up a large-ish editor (like Atom or VSCode) and Inkscape or a video editor, I can end up with real memory problems. I haven't actually dug in to see where all the memory is going precisely, but my email/web workflow (Firefox+Thunderbird) has been the same for about ten years now, so it's interesting that it continues to bump up against memory limits no matter how much memory I have. But, Windows on the same system has similar memory issues when working on the same tasks; so it is not immune, but I don't think it is notably worse than Linux.
p_b_r 11y ago
Aggregation does not necessarily imply improvement. Architecturally, it's quite worse than just putting lipstick on a pig - they're bolting a racehorse on top of their pig. If you look at things just right and ignore the pig, you can pretend you're galloping around on an able horse. but, inevitably, both you and the horse will have to deal with the fact that there's a pig bolted to the undercarriage. Linux doesn't need to be put inside another OS to be any more relevant or useful. I think, if it could talk, Linux would tell Windows: "Sit down - I got this."