4 ms·

Is a degree objectively better? Developers generally fit into two broad categories -- those who learned to program on their own at age 10 or so and those who d

by hajile 11y ago

Is a degree objectively better? Developers generally fit into two broad categories -- those who learned to program on their own at age 10 or so and those who decided to pursue a CS degree because the job pays well or they like playing video games. 7 years of experience beats 4 years of college and 3 years experience pretty much every time. Unfortunately, a huge amount of CS degree time is spent dealing with those with no experience (We have remedial Math or English classes, why not remedial programming classes?). When I hit college (pursuing EE with CS on the side), I already had almost a decade of programming under my belt. I coasted through anything programming related (I'd already found and read books on the theoretical side of programming, so even those weren't that interesting). At the end of the college road, the people with college only were mostly worthless. They may be able to parrot the big-O notation, but they couldn't tell if a function would be efficient. They could talk about design patterns, but they couldn't handle systems more complex than a couple files. That's nothing against them, I (and others who had been programming from an early age) simply had a lot more experience in thinking in that way (and over time, most of them have become much better). We need to introduce programming to all children at an early age. Not because everyone can code (that's not at all backed by any studies I've ever seen), but because lots of kids don't find out that they have a knack for programming until college (or not at all). If most CS students had been programming since middle school, CS could drop a bunch of the remedial classes and focus on the finer parts of programming. Many so-called masters classes are within easy reach if you have some programming time under your belt. Companies would be a lot more willing to hire a dev out of college if they knew college was worth something. Until that happens, I don't think a degree is actually better.

georgefrick 11y ago
I'm actually confused why you seem to be attempting to argue my point, when I was stating it's a situation that is unique to an individual. Do you really objectively think a degree is a yes/no answer that applies universally? What if someone wants to work on deep sea exploration robotics? Yes/No is an oversimplification and your post actually helps to point that out in two ways. The second way is easier so I'll get it out of the way. More education earlier is an argument that formal programming education can be helpful. That wouldn't undermine the idea that a CS degree has importance on a individual basis; not as a general yes/no rule. We've agree that formal programming education CAN help. The second point is big for me, and it really bothers me to be honest (not about your post, I appreciate your post). It's this idea that the CS degree is this static cement thing; like we order it from Amazon. A degree is what you make it! Your point about remedial classes, etc is spot on. It's exactly an argument that each person has to weigh the benefits they can get from the degree with the benefits from going right into the industry. If the person shows up at college and picks programming for the reasons you described; then you are probably correct in that it is not "better". However, college is a four year chance to build a competitive advantage. Statistics. Economics. Linguistics. Physics. Accounting. Art. Etc. If someone chooses to make their degree a worthless money sink, that does not cancel out the person who spends four years learning to code, analyze speech, and working hard on the OpenROV team. Those are two completely different people and neither needs to put their degree on their resume. But only one can put speech analysis and OpenROV there; which they got as part of that degree. They also now have those contacts and team building experiences. Another example might be someone who spends the four years working part time as a contractor. "Got a degree while building industry experience" trounces "got a degree" AND "industry experience" (imho). A degree is something you pay for, it's an investment and should be treated as such (in the scope of our discussion). While the underlying argument may be if an employer cares; I think that honestly employers are looking at it as a signal that there might be something more to you than some Java/JavaScript syntax.
- gravypod 11y ago
  My main problem with attending my university is a lot of my time is spent dealing with classes I can't care about. Right now my in major GPA is above a 3.2 while my cumulative GPA is hovering around a 2.9; I just don't care about non-cs classes. This would be find if being at a university had any noticeable benefits, but it only has detractors. - No one will hire me for a paid position - I have to waste most of my time on classes I don't care about - No more time for my side projects that I use to learn.
  - Ologn 11y ago
    My college had three non-CS writing courses. I would say they helped improve my writing skill, especially one of the classes. I would also say writing well is an important skill to have when working for a business - when writing documents and sending e-mails to other techs, and especially in communications with non-techs. CS is not the only thing you need to know when working for a business. Other classes folded back into CS or working for a business as well. For example, my psychology course was helpful in a number of areas, including as preparation for an AI elective I took.
    - gravypod 11y ago
      I have to take two physics classes, ~4 history classes, and ~2 English classes. We also have a requirement for attending a philosophy class about ethics in computing or something.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
        My education as an EE was somewhat similar. Before starting any EE classes, I took 4 physics courses, two chemistry, three English/composition/Literature (would have been 4 but I tested out of Engl101) courses, and one History course (that I failed and had to repeat because I blew it off). Then we can get into the stuff I only know I took because it's on my transcript. Stuff I forgot all about because it was never actually "used" like Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Linear Analysis, and Math, Math, Math. I think the only time I didn't have anything that looked like a math class was the semester right before graduation. Somewhere in there I took a few actual EE courses. Guess which ones had the most impact on my career? Hint: it ain't the EE stuff (although I worked as an EE for 6 years after graduation).

by hajile 11y ago

georgefrick 11y ago

I'm actually confused why you seem to be attempting to argue my point, when I was stating it's a situation that is unique to an individual. Do you really objectively think a degree is a yes/no answer that applies universally? What if someone wants to work on deep sea exploration robotics? Yes/No is an oversimplification and your post actually helps to point that out in two ways. The second way is easier so I'll get it out of the way. More education earlier is an argument that formal programming education can be helpful. That wouldn't undermine the idea that a CS degree has importance on a individual basis; not as a general yes/no rule. We've agree that formal programming education CAN help. The second point is big for me, and it really bothers me to be honest (not about your post, I appreciate your post). It's this idea that the CS degree is this static cement thing; like we order it from Amazon. A degree is what you make it! Your point about remedial classes, etc is spot on. It's exactly an argument that each person has to weigh the benefits they can get from the degree with the benefits from going right into the industry. If the person shows up at college and picks programming for the reasons you described; then you are probably correct in that it is not "better". However, college is a four year chance to build a competitive advantage. Statistics. Economics. Linguistics. Physics. Accounting. Art. Etc. If someone chooses to make their degree a worthless money sink, that does not cancel out the person who spends four years learning to code, analyze speech, and working hard on the OpenROV team. Those are two completely different people and neither needs to put their degree on their resume. But only one can put speech analysis and OpenROV there; which they got as part of that degree. They also now have those contacts and team building experiences. Another example might be someone who spends the four years working part time as a contractor. "Got a degree while building industry experience" trounces "got a degree" AND "industry experience" (imho). A degree is something you pay for, it's an investment and should be treated as such (in the scope of our discussion). While the underlying argument may be if an employer cares; I think that honestly employers are looking at it as a signal that there might be something more to you than some Java/JavaScript syntax.

gravypod 11y ago
My main problem with attending my university is a lot of my time is spent dealing with classes I can't care about. Right now my in major GPA is above a 3.2 while my cumulative GPA is hovering around a 2.9; I just don't care about non-cs classes. This would be find if being at a university had any noticeable benefits, but it only has detractors. - No one will hire me for a paid position - I have to waste most of my time on classes I don't care about - No more time for my side projects that I use to learn.
- Ologn 11y ago
  My college had three non-CS writing courses. I would say they helped improve my writing skill, especially one of the classes. I would also say writing well is an important skill to have when working for a business - when writing documents and sending e-mails to other techs, and especially in communications with non-techs. CS is not the only thing you need to know when working for a business. Other classes folded back into CS or working for a business as well. For example, my psychology course was helpful in a number of areas, including as preparation for an AI elective I took.
  - gravypod 11y ago
    I have to take two physics classes, ~4 history classes, and ~2 English classes. We also have a requirement for attending a philosophy class about ethics in computing or something.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
      My education as an EE was somewhat similar. Before starting any EE classes, I took 4 physics courses, two chemistry, three English/composition/Literature (would have been 4 but I tested out of Engl101) courses, and one History course (that I failed and had to repeat because I blew it off). Then we can get into the stuff I only know I took because it's on my transcript. Stuff I forgot all about because it was never actually "used" like Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Linear Analysis, and Math, Math, Math. I think the only time I didn't have anything that looked like a math class was the semester right before graduation. Somewhere in there I took a few actual EE courses. Guess which ones had the most impact on my career? Hint: it ain't the EE stuff (although I worked as an EE for 6 years after graduation).