4 ms·

If a Basketball player needed to be on the court at 6am, you would expect them to go to sleep at the proper time in order to perform to expectation at 6am. They

by pigpaws 11y ago

If a Basketball player needed to be on the court at 6am, you would expect them to go to sleep at the proper time in order to perform to expectation at 6am. They are adults, right? Most people at work and in college are adults and are expected to perform as required for the classes/Job that THEY CHOSE and then some complain about the expectation that they be in and functioning at a specific time - that makes NO sense.

FussyZeus 11y ago
I love how we as a society have linked the time of day you start your work to your maturity, because those are obviously connected. This is exactly the type of attitude that the article is arguing against. Sure, complete, 100% autonomy for an employee is unrealistic, the organization has needs too. But to say that the employee can have no flexibility at all and MUST be in the office, with the other employees, at this specific time because we said so? My response to that is why? And if you can't cite a reason that doesn't involve such abstract concepts as maturity (highly relative, not measurable) or without citing tradition (highly irrational, based on societal momentum and not fact) then I'm not interested and I'll work somewhere else. Note that this leaves plenty of room for legitimate reasons, such as "the basketball game starts at this specific time, so we need you here" and that is totally 100% a reasonable thing to say.
- pigpaws 11y ago
  How about "you took a job that requires you to be in the office at 7am. So, be in the office at 7am." Being an adult implies that your take care of your responsibilities. You pay your bills, and you show up to class/work on time, etc... If you schedule a BioChem class that starts at 7am, don't complain when it starts at 7am. If you still don't understand this context, please stop now. As a student, your world revolves around the schedule of your professor(s) Not your social life. In most professions from the NBA to IT, as an employee, your schedule revolves around that of your employer Not your social life. And most times, if you own your own business, your schedule revolves around the schedule of your clients, at this point, you don't have a social life. Some people get lucky and either don't need to be confined to a schedule or have an open one. Great! but for the rest that don't, either stop complaining about the schedule of the job/class/career path that YOU CHOSE or get another one. It really is that simple.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    Firstly, I've been steadily employed for 8+ years so please stop talking like I'm some stupid child. 6 of those 8 were during college when I attended classes during the daytime and worked third shift to support myself, I am well versed in the concept of "showing up when required" and happily did so because there was a rational explanation for those hours. Secondly, I am not nor have I ever brought up students. Schooling is an entirely different ball game, you're not being paid to be there, you're paying to be there, you set a schedule more or less to your own preferences and so have less of a reason to be upset about it, and classes are not often the length of a regular job shift, so the timing isn't nearly as critical. I could go on, this is apples and oranges and I have no idea why you brought it up. Thirdly, even though I never brought up social lives I'll say this: If my priority is to have time to spend with my wife, my friends, or my family, as long as it does not affect my job performance if I set my hours to suit those preferences it's exactly NONE of your business what those preferences are. Finally, I'm not complaining about my schedule, but exactly the opposite and what I said from the top was that if a given company doesn't offer a flexible schedule that I wouldn't work there. Work on your reading comprehension.
    - pigpaws 11y ago
      LOL - Did I touch a nerve there, Nancy? You're taking this way too personal. I am referring to people in general. I don't care what you do as an individual. Actually, you what you said re: flexibility was in regards to the business having to have it, yet did not mention the employee. I countered with the fact that in general an employee's (work) schedule revolves around that of the business - not vice-versa. Also that an employee's primary concern is to remain employed, and to do that, they must do what the business requires of them (that they agreed to when they took the job). Also, you said NOTHING about whether or not you'd work for them or not - it wasn't even implied. Your statement was "But to say that the employee can have no flexibility at all and MUST be in the office, with the other employees, at this specific time because we said so? My response to that is why?" I'm sorry, you said something about comprehension, so I decided to break down the conversation for you.
      - 11y ago
- davemel37 11y ago
  > My response to that is why? And if you can't cite a reason that doesn't involve such abstract concepts as maturity (highly relative, not measurable) I used to think this way until one day I realized that there are many very important things that are unquantifiable and abstract, yet still matter very much. I used to think coming on time to work was arbitrarily set by my boss...but over the years I discovered that there are numerous good, but abstract and unquantifiable reasons for this. The idea that, as an employee, you have to be able to understand a rule in order to not resent following it, is a flawed attitude, and a reflection of a deeper problem with authority or need for control. Would the reason, "I need you here early to see if you can follow instructions from your boss without understanding them." be a goood enough reason for you? For what it's worth, I found a way to control my own schedule for the most part and I work better in this environment...but I have come to appreciate that there are elements at play beyond our immediate understanding, especially when working with others...and whether i understand it or not, I should respect it's value or at least the role I play within that hierarchy and framework.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    The attitude of our CEO and thusly the leadership in our company is that every minute a given manager is spending on disciplining employees for things as trivial as arriving late is not adding value to the company, it just makes the employee miserable. Now granted, if a given employee is knocking off work 15 minutes early and coming in 15 minutes late then that's something to discuss, but we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability. If you need to leave an hour early one day, do it. Take care of what needs doing, then VPN from home that night or stay late at the office the next day. We trust each other to do our jobs and hold each other to the fire if we aren't. As a result the whole company has a very flat organization chart. My boss doesn't give me instructions I don't understand, nor does he require me to obey them from anyone else. This makes us much leaner as an organization and more focused on what actually adds value, not on the minutiae so popular with middle management at other places I've worked. Doesn't work for everyone, YMMV, etc.
    - davemel37 11y ago
      > we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability > YMMV Exactly. If your culture and environment is built on that framework, than it would inconsistent to be a stickler for time, etc... However, there are many organizations where this is not the case. An accounting firm or law firm might need people in their seats early in the day in case a client comes by, so they see what they are getting for their money. A commercial real estate management company might need people wearing suits and ties to impress and demand better terms and higher lease rates from their tenants, etc... There is an amazing book called, "Broken Windows, Broken Business" about how cleaning up grafitti in NY Subways led to a huge drop in crime. When people see you care about something as trivial as coming late...they will be damn sure not to screw up something important or be late with a client, etc... People need to be aware of how their behavior influences others and in my experience, employees rarely see beyond themselves when it comes to minutia they dont understand.

by pigpaws 11y ago

FussyZeus 11y ago

I love how we as a society have linked the time of day you start your work to your maturity, because those are obviously connected. This is exactly the type of attitude that the article is arguing against. Sure, complete, 100% autonomy for an employee is unrealistic, the organization has needs too. But to say that the employee can have no flexibility at all and MUST be in the office, with the other employees, at this specific time because we said so? My response to that is why? And if you can't cite a reason that doesn't involve such abstract concepts as maturity (highly relative, not measurable) or without citing tradition (highly irrational, based on societal momentum and not fact) then I'm not interested and I'll work somewhere else. Note that this leaves plenty of room for legitimate reasons, such as "the basketball game starts at this specific time, so we need you here" and that is totally 100% a reasonable thing to say.

pigpaws 11y ago
How about "you took a job that requires you to be in the office at 7am. So, be in the office at 7am." Being an adult implies that your take care of your responsibilities. You pay your bills, and you show up to class/work on time, etc... If you schedule a BioChem class that starts at 7am, don't complain when it starts at 7am. If you still don't understand this context, please stop now. As a student, your world revolves around the schedule of your professor(s) Not your social life. In most professions from the NBA to IT, as an employee, your schedule revolves around that of your employer Not your social life. And most times, if you own your own business, your schedule revolves around the schedule of your clients, at this point, you don't have a social life. Some people get lucky and either don't need to be confined to a schedule or have an open one. Great! but for the rest that don't, either stop complaining about the schedule of the job/class/career path that YOU CHOSE or get another one. It really is that simple.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Firstly, I've been steadily employed for 8+ years so please stop talking like I'm some stupid child. 6 of those 8 were during college when I attended classes during the daytime and worked third shift to support myself, I am well versed in the concept of "showing up when required" and happily did so because there was a rational explanation for those hours. Secondly, I am not nor have I ever brought up students. Schooling is an entirely different ball game, you're not being paid to be there, you're paying to be there, you set a schedule more or less to your own preferences and so have less of a reason to be upset about it, and classes are not often the length of a regular job shift, so the timing isn't nearly as critical. I could go on, this is apples and oranges and I have no idea why you brought it up. Thirdly, even though I never brought up social lives I'll say this: If my priority is to have time to spend with my wife, my friends, or my family, as long as it does not affect my job performance if I set my hours to suit those preferences it's exactly NONE of your business what those preferences are. Finally, I'm not complaining about my schedule, but exactly the opposite and what I said from the top was that if a given company doesn't offer a flexible schedule that I wouldn't work there. Work on your reading comprehension.
  - pigpaws 11y ago
    LOL - Did I touch a nerve there, Nancy? You're taking this way too personal. I am referring to people in general. I don't care what you do as an individual. Actually, you what you said re: flexibility was in regards to the business having to have it, yet did not mention the employee. I countered with the fact that in general an employee's (work) schedule revolves around that of the business - not vice-versa. Also that an employee's primary concern is to remain employed, and to do that, they must do what the business requires of them (that they agreed to when they took the job). Also, you said NOTHING about whether or not you'd work for them or not - it wasn't even implied. Your statement was "But to say that the employee can have no flexibility at all and MUST be in the office, with the other employees, at this specific time because we said so? My response to that is why?" I'm sorry, you said something about comprehension, so I decided to break down the conversation for you.
    - 11y ago
davemel37 11y ago
> My response to that is why? And if you can't cite a reason that doesn't involve such abstract concepts as maturity (highly relative, not measurable) I used to think this way until one day I realized that there are many very important things that are unquantifiable and abstract, yet still matter very much. I used to think coming on time to work was arbitrarily set by my boss...but over the years I discovered that there are numerous good, but abstract and unquantifiable reasons for this. The idea that, as an employee, you have to be able to understand a rule in order to not resent following it, is a flawed attitude, and a reflection of a deeper problem with authority or need for control. Would the reason, "I need you here early to see if you can follow instructions from your boss without understanding them." be a goood enough reason for you? For what it's worth, I found a way to control my own schedule for the most part and I work better in this environment...but I have come to appreciate that there are elements at play beyond our immediate understanding, especially when working with others...and whether i understand it or not, I should respect it's value or at least the role I play within that hierarchy and framework.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  The attitude of our CEO and thusly the leadership in our company is that every minute a given manager is spending on disciplining employees for things as trivial as arriving late is not adding value to the company, it just makes the employee miserable. Now granted, if a given employee is knocking off work 15 minutes early and coming in 15 minutes late then that's something to discuss, but we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability. If you need to leave an hour early one day, do it. Take care of what needs doing, then VPN from home that night or stay late at the office the next day. We trust each other to do our jobs and hold each other to the fire if we aren't. As a result the whole company has a very flat organization chart. My boss doesn't give me instructions I don't understand, nor does he require me to obey them from anyone else. This makes us much leaner as an organization and more focused on what actually adds value, not on the minutiae so popular with middle management at other places I've worked. Doesn't work for everyone, YMMV, etc.
  - davemel37 11y ago
    > we operate on the idea of freedom + accountability > YMMV Exactly. If your culture and environment is built on that framework, than it would inconsistent to be a stickler for time, etc... However, there are many organizations where this is not the case. An accounting firm or law firm might need people in their seats early in the day in case a client comes by, so they see what they are getting for their money. A commercial real estate management company might need people wearing suits and ties to impress and demand better terms and higher lease rates from their tenants, etc... There is an amazing book called, "Broken Windows, Broken Business" about how cleaning up grafitti in NY Subways led to a huge drop in crime. When people see you care about something as trivial as coming late...they will be damn sure not to screw up something important or be late with a client, etc... People need to be aware of how their behavior influences others and in my experience, employees rarely see beyond themselves when it comes to minutia they dont understand.